Mom Angelica sits down with Winter in this interview to talk about the trauma of finding out her son would be stillborn and giving birth to him via Caesarean section, how she transitioned back to work as a NICU nurse, and what’s she’s done to cope after Ezra’s death. She also shares things that you should and shouldn’t say to a loss mom or dad.
Watch here (YouTube):
Listen here (podcast):
Time Stamps:
00:00 Welcome
02:09 After Ezra’s birth (stillborn) and what helped
07:57 Work
15:02 Physical reminders of Ezra
24:54 How has Nick (husband) handled everything
36:27 What not to say and what to say
You might appreciate these other episodes:
- Watch/listen to Angelica’s birth episode of son Ezra: Click here
- Watch/listen to Tiffany‘s birth episode of daughter Khyana’s: Click here
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Full Transcription:
Winter 0:00
Welcome, everybody to Still A Part of Us.
Winter 0:02
I am Winter. I’m one of the hosts of this show. We’re going to be talking with Angelica a little bit about her experience with the stillbirth of her son Ezra. A couple of things before we get started, just housekeeping things, this conversation is full of triggers. So if you are not in a good place, please do not listen, do not watch, we want to be as helpful as possible. And if you’re not in a good place, please just be aware that we will be talking about a lot of different things that could be hard to listen to. So please just be aware of that. If you are part of our community, if you are a lost mom, lost dad, hit the subscribe button. We are here to help build community. So please join us and help each other out.
Winter 0:43
Once again, Angelica, thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us about Ezra. If you did not get a chance to hear her birth story, you will cry. Because I did. Please check that birth story out. Angelica, thank you once again for coming on today. And discussing some things that have helped you and have not helped you. So welcome. Once again.
Angelica 1:06
Thank you so much and thank you for again wanting to hear my sons story.
Winter 1:10
Oh, yeah.
Angelica 1:11
It is so wonderful to be able to tell it.
Winter 1:12
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Tell us again, just so that everybody is kind of brought up to speed. How long ago was Ezra born?
Angelica 1:21
He was born on June 1st of 2020.
Winter 1:25
So at the time of this recording, it’s been just about 10 months or so. So still very new still very raw. I’m going to just be like– that first birthday coming up is that can be that’s going to be a milestone that can be a little tricky. We’ll talk a little bit about that as well.
Winter 1:45
Also, just a little bit of context, Ezra was stillborn at 33 weeks, so that everybody knows where we’re coming from. So, Angelica, tell me how it’s been these last 10 months for you. How’s your grief been? How have you approached it, I guess? And how have you dealt with it?
Angelica 2:09
To start with it was really, really rough and dark. It just was. Everything just got so dark. This first couple of weeks, I think I was actually so despondent that my husband was concerned that I would do something drastic. That’s what he told me. I’ve done talk therapy before, but he looked at me, he said, “If you’re willing to do it, just for a week, you know, I really think you should.” So I did start to go to counseling in the first two to three weeks, following Ezra’s death. That did help quite a bit. I went about twice a week for several months, and then eventually went down to once and for several months. Now it’s kind of been titrated to about once a month for the past two months or so.
Winter 3:10
It sounds like it has been somewhat helpful.
Angelica 3:14
Yes, yeah. I found that it was really helpful for me to talk about him. To talk about what happened. I just didn’t realize how much it would be helpful to talk about him. Because there are so many other instances where I’ve met parents who just don’t want to talk about what happens at all. If you want to sweep it under the rug for the moment, and just kind of move forward. I thought to myself, am I doing this wrong? Because I feel like I want to talk about him more? Or am I productivities support groups, that kind of thing.
Angelica 3:58
I didn’t actually start going to support groups until about two months after and it started with local support groups.
Winter 4:04
Yeah.
Angelica 4:06
That I found another organization. It’s called the Star Legacy Foundation.
Winter 4:10
Oh, yes.
Angelica 4:12
Which I imagine somebody has to have mentioned.
Winter 4:14
Yeah.
Angelica 4:15
Once before here, but they had a physician who was doing a seminar on umbilical cords. Because we don’t really know what happened to Ezra I thought, well, maybe he’s got information that will give me an a-ha moment.
Winter 4:33
I see.
Angelica 4:33
So I can talk to my doctor about it and see if that could have been part of what happened. Then from there, found the support groups on there.
Winter 4:43
Great. It makes a huge difference when you are sitting with somebody that has had a very similar experience to you. Not having to kind of explain all those feelings that you have and if they’ve never experienced before, because you mentioned that before in your birth episode. Your background is as a NICU nurse, a neonatal intensive care unit nurse. So you’ve always had that idea that there’s a possibility, right? You’ve seen people have lost before. But you said something that struck a chord with me where you said, “I had no idea, even though I understood it, until you actually have felt the loss yourself.” It’s totally different. Right?
Angelica 5:25
It really is. Because in a report, when we’re talking about our patients, we talk about their moms, we talk about the birth history, and that includes mom’s birth history as well. So if parents have had a previous loss, then we generally know about those. Anytime that you hear about somebody who has had previous losses, it just– before losing Ezra, would just make my heart sink. But now it makes me weak at the knees, just thinking about what that person is going through. So yeah. What other people will have the ability to imagine doesn’t even touch with the actual experience, regardless of how much they worked on it, how much they tried to understand it. I’m grateful for that. I am so grateful. But there are people out there who try– who work with those who have lost, but who have never experienced that loss themselves.
Winter 6:31
Yeah.
Angelica 6:32
I think that’s– I’m grateful that they haven’t been through that themselves.
Angelica 6:37
Yeah, but are willing. Oh, yeah, I was gonna say shout out to my therapist, same thing with her. She’s never experienced that kind of loss, but she has helped us so much. So yes, I completely agree with you. Then there are some people that are still doing wonderful things, despite not having had that loss. Thankfully not having that loss. So you have gone to see a therapist. Also some of these grief groups that are– you can also you can find them kind of online, you can meet electronically, I guess, which is so so nice. Especially at this time when meetings, like in person meetings, are not happening. I believe my hospital– I don’t think has any of those in person meetings. It’s all zoom right now. Anyway, so. So yeah.
Angelica 7:26
That’s us too. I think that the pandemic has made this technology more accessible.
Winter 7:34
Yeah.
Angelica 7:34
And, and so I think, as awful as things have been over the last year for so many different reasons. You know, I think that aspect of things has been helpful.
Winter 7:48
Yes.
Angelica 7:49
It’s been really helpful to have the access to those people. electronically, virtually.
Winter 7:55
Yeah, virtually. Yes, it is. Yeah, it is a blessing. That’s a little silver lining of the pandemic, right. And when you obviously you had Ezra, and he was, this was a big surprise. Obviously, not expected you were 33 weeks. Were you allowed to take some time off to after his birth?
Angelica 8:18
Yes, yes. I originally asked them just to allow me to take whatever I was allowed for maternity leave. Originally, I was approved for nine weeks off. As I was getting to like the seven, eight week mark, I started to panic about thinking about going back to work.
Winter 8:38
Yeah.
Angelica 8:38
Because I just didn’t know if like, I didn’t even know if I could physically enter the hospital, let alone walk those same halls.
Angelica 8:47
Yes.
Angelica 8:48
You know, go back into the unit where I was just hours before I was admitted. And found out that he was gone. So I just didn’t know. So I petitioned for three more, which I had. It was within the policy to allow me to have that extra time.
Winter 9:11
Right.
Angelica 9:11
But they were very gracious. So I was able to take 12 weeks off. And I needed every last day.
Winter 9:18
Yeah. Great. That’s great. And transitioning back to work. So you did you go back to the NICU?
Angelica 9:26
Yeah I did.
Winter 9:28
How did that happen?
Angelica 9:29
It has been a whirlwind. I started off the first week or so. The first week or so I was with a fellow employee, one of my peers. Almost like I was being oriented back onto the floor. Because I knew that if something happened, I needed somebody who’s going to be able to watch my assignment. Right then and there. I wasn’t going to be able to wait for somebody who could come and take over for me in 20 minutes when they were done with their assignment elsewhere. I just needed someone who could take over the reins. I knew that the kids were safe, because my biggest concern was that I wasn’t going to be a safe nurse that I was going to be distracted. It started out in small increments. So I think I started out with four hour increments, went to eight and then eventually worked my way back up to full 12.
Winter 10:39
Right, right. I think that’s and was that something that kind of worked out with your nurse manager too? To create something that kind of schedule so that you could feel like you were easing back into things?
Angelica 10:54
Yeah, I did talk with my nurse manager. They kind of worked out what types of assignments I should be taking as well as to make sure that they weren’t giving me little boys named Ezra, or 33 weekers. You know, just to kind of be sensitive about the details surrounding Ezra’s birth. And helping me to come back just because– don’t ask me why they want me back. Because I feel pretty worthless as a NICU nurse somedays. But they’ve been very kind too. They’ve been trying to help me to adjust back.
Winter 11:44
Yeah, praises to you– seriously, they have just to pay attention to like you said the details. The fact that they’re like if this patient is a like a 33 weeker– that this baby is a 33 weeker. That’s those little things that can be triggering. The fact that they are paying attention is cool, like that is very sensitive and cool of them to do that. Or to be aware of that.
Angelica 12:08
Yeah they are amazing.
Winter 12:09
Yeah.
Angelica 12:10
My co-workers have been amazing. And actually, so because he was born early, because we delivered early, I didn’t have those extra weeks PTO. So I think I was able to cover seven weeks of PTO on my own. All the rest of it was PTO donation.
Winter 12:32
Oh.
Angelica 12:32
From my co-workers.
Winter 12:34
That is awesome. That is so kind.
Angelica 12:38
They fed and clothed my family and kept the lights on for five weeks. It’s hard to know how to say thank you to them.
Winter 12:50
Yeah. Yeah. That’s really great. I think that’s– good job coworkers!
Angelica 12:59
They are just amazing.
Angelica 13:01
Yeah, yeah. Now your backup to like, full time shifts. And how is it? How’s that been? Are you doing? Are you? How’s that? Are you? Are you doing? Okay? Like, I just I can’t imagine honestly, working on the NICU so. I just like oh, oh, yeah.
Angelica 13:16
I’m actually not working full time I’m point six.
Winter 13:19
Oh, okay.
Angelica 13:20
I’m working two days a week.
Winter 13:21
Okay.
Angelica 13:22
That was always the plan.
Winter 13:23
Oh.
Angelica 13:24
That was always the plan for us, for me to go to point six after Ezra was born because our intent was for me to be able to spend more time with the kids. Then to kind of minimize the amount of childcare.
Winter 13:35
Yes, Yes, for sure.
Angelica 13:36
But after Ezra passed I just thought to myself, I don’t know that I can force myself to be on the floor any longer than that. You know what I mean?
Winter 13:43
Yeah.
Angelica 13:44
Just because, as you probably know it, you spend all of your days off, just accruing as much energy as you can so that you can be functional and have your head on straight. I feel like those two days at work every week, they take every ounce of energy that I have collected over, you know, a couple of days at a time.
Winter 14:14
Yeah. That is a great way of putting it. You do need to store it up. To yeah, to be on task, I guess. Yeah.
Angelica 14:25
Yes and for me, I just, I don’t want to be a liability.
Winter 14:34
Right. Yes.
Angelica 14:36
After losing my own child, I couldn’t live with myself knowing that I had contributed to the loss of somebody else’s child. So when I’m at work I try to be–
Winter 14:48
You’re on, Yeah.
Angelica 14:50
Focused as I possibly can be.
Winter 14:52
Yes.
Angelica 14:53
And as attentive to detail as my brain will allow.
Winter 14:57
Yeah.
Angelica 14:57
So far, they haven’t asked me to leave. I think that’s a good sign.
Winter 15:02
Yeah I think that it’s a good sign. Well, yeah. Angelica tell me what you have done in order to kind of remember Ezra. I know you mentioned in your birth story that they gave you a weighted teddy bear. I think some people don’t know about these kind of weighted teddy bears or weighted stuffed animals where it’s the same weight as your child. Oh, you’re going to go grab it yay!
Angelica 15:36
So I have two.
Winter 15:39
Oh look at that!
Angelica 15:40
So this is the teddy bear that they gave us in the hospital.
Winter 15:44
Uh huh. Oh, he’s really cute.
Angelica 15:46
He actually weighs less than Ezra, but it’s strange when you’re cradling them in your arms. They just feel so small.
Winter 15:56
Yeah.
Angelica 15:57
And so weightless. So when I was holding him, I thought to myself that you know that they had to be around the same weight, but they aren’t. At least not with the Molly Bear that we got later on. I think this is a brand that’s called the comfort cub.
Winter 16:17
Cute.
Angelica 16:21
This is the Molly Bear that we made.
Winter 16:25
It’s got his name and everything. That’s so cute.
Angelica 16:29
It sas his metrics on the foot.
Winter 16:30
Oh, that’s great. Is that something that you can have like custom with the Molly Bears?
Angelica 16:36
Yeah.
Winter 16:36
Okay because we don’t have one. That was not on our radar because I did not know that there was something you could do like that. Then I started talking to more people. I was like, oh, maybe I should get a Molly Bear. That would be fun to have something that is his weight kind of represents our son.
Angelica 16:54
You can get one at any point.
Winter 16:56
Yeah.
Angelica 16:57
My mom actually had a pregnancy loss between my brother and me. So that’s, you know 30 plus years.
Winter 17:09
Yeah.
Angelica 17:10
And she got a Molly Bear.
Angelica 17:11
Oh, that’s great. So, how far along was her loss? I’m curious.
Angelica 17:20
She was about 17 weeks along.
Winter 17:22
Yeah.
Angelica 17:23
But it was the 80s, so I mean, in circumstances where maybe a nurse would have offered to let her hold the baby, or see the baby they didn’t give her that opportunity. They didn’t let her labor. They just did a DNC patched her up and sent her out the door.
Winter 17:41
Yeah.
Angelica 17:42
They don’t even really know what happens to the baby.
Winter 17:44
Yeah, isn’t that just I’m so grateful when I hear stories from different times that I’m like, we are a little bit– it seems like we get a little bit more time to be with our child to figure out things. To be able to mourn and grieve. That it just yeah, so grateful that it’s a little different than back in the 70s, or a different time. That’s cool that she was able to get a Molly Berry. I think that’s great. Um, any other things that you guys have to remember Ezra by?
Angelica 18:20
A lot of people have given me jewelry. So I have a ring with his name on it? I don’t know if you can see it.
Winter 18:27
Oh, yeah, it’s a little small but that’s okay!
Angelica 18:29
Bracelets and then I actually had this necklace made.
Winter 18:30
Oh look at that.
Angelica 18:35
It has his picture on one side then–
Winter 18:42
Oh, I love that!
Angelica 18:45
Then his date of birth on the other.
Winter 18:46
Look at his cute little footprint. Those are so cute. Did you just have that made?
Angelica 18:53
You send the photo files to them. Then they just adjust them to size.
Winter 18:59
That is great.
Angelica 19:00
Then they put it on there. Other people have sent us lots of things like that to just really thoughtful things, but then we have the things from the hospital as well. So we have his little footprint.
Winter 19:14
Oh, I totally can’t see that. It’s a little too. Oh, I see it there it is! That’s perfect. That’s perfect. Okay.
Angelica 19:24
Then the hospital gave us– so this is a blanket that they said for Philippa.
Winter 19:29
Oh for her.
Angelica 19:32
Then they also sent her a teddy bear.
Winter 19:34
Oh, that’s so sweet.
Angelica 19:35
Then we have photo books like I made this one for Pippa because the one that Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep got made for us is really big.
Winter 19:47
Oh!
Angelica 19:48
Every time she tried to pull it down, I was worried that she was going to give herself a concussion. So I made her a little one that has so you can write on the inside out.
Winter 20:00
That is so cool.
Angelica 20:03
It’s small for small hands.
Winter 20:05
Yeah, so she can reference that. Oh, that. So um, so the big album is from, so I lay me down to sleep that is cool. I didn’t realize that they made albums.
Angelica 20:17
It’s actually from I can’t remember the name of the company, but they’re contracted through the hospital.
Winter 20:28
Okay.
Angelica 20:29
So the hospital kind of links them together.
Winter 20:32
Yeah.
Angelica 20:32
Now I lay me down to Sleep. Then they just make a photo book for you.
Winter 20:36
That is really cool.
Angelica 20:38
Using the files that they took when they got the photographs.
Winter 20:42
Yeah.
Angelica 20:42
In the hospital and having it.
Winter 20:46
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that looks awesome. And what a beautiful, like, kind of just a remembrance, being able to flip through those photos regularly and easily. So I think that’s awesome.
Angelica 21:01
Then they made– When I thought about what I was going to do for a baby book, because I was thinking about that after the fact, I just broke down. I was looking online, and there is a memorial baby book that they make called I love you still.
Winter 21:17
Yes, I have seen that. But I have not gotten it. So you can just put–
Angelica 21:23
That’s Pippa’s contribution. But it has information about you and you can put pictures in what your family looks like before that. So then it goes month by month. So for seven months, and eventually, you get to the point where you were when you lost. So there are just blank pages. But it’s a way to kind of include that information. I feel like it’s almost like a self help book too. Because at the back it’s got prompts like, how have you changed? What things have helped you? I am grateful for.
Winter 22:10
I think that’s so–
Angelica 22:11
You can use it like a journal.
Winter 22:14
I am, I will share a link to that because I have like I said, I that just barely showed up on my radar. And I was like, Oh, I might need to check that out. That is really cool. There’s kind of this option to create a baby book in a sense. Yeah, cuz you would record you would record all those things.
Angelica 22:34
I remember writing them down after we came home from the hospital. It was pretty quick after that, I started to write things down just because I could feel the fog starting to set in. It’s still there. You know, I still feel so foggy. But having some of those things in writing.
Winter 22:54
Yeah.
Angelica 22:56
Is helpful. It can help me to jog my memory a little bit. Every time that I feel like his memories are slipping away, I just feel like I’m losing a part of him. It’s just hard.
Winter 23:09
Yes. Yeah, those memories are– Writing it down writing things down has been key for us, too. So even if it’s just a quick note on my phone. If I remember something I try– we tried to do that, like I do that on my phone, my husband, I know that he usually keeps a little notes file as well. And so yeah, I think writing it down as quickly as possible is always super helpful. Then I have actually really enjoyed going back and looking at some of the things that I wrote. I do notice some changes, right? Like you.
Angelica 23:47
Yeah.
Winter 23:48
Yeah, you kind of notice changes in yourself. Then also, like, Oh, I don’t remember that. But then now it jogs my memory to something else that I had felt at the time. So yeah, so–
Angelica 23:59
I’ve always been horrible about writing, started journal, and then put in a couple that five years later stumble upon it again. But I was amazed by the number of people who gifted us journals.
Winter 24:14
Yeah.
Angelica 24:14
I thought, okay. So I did start writing in a journal.
Winter 24:19
Great!
Angelica 24:19
I figured that, you know, I can’t, I often can’t write in a diary, like dear diary, you know, because for some reason, it just doesn’t. It doesn’t establish a habit for me.
Winter 24:34
Yeah.
Angelica 24:34
So I’ve started writing letters to him.
Winter 24:38
Oh, okay.
Angelica 24:39
Letters to Ezra like I’m talking to him about the day. Things that I was thinking about that day, ways that I was thinking about him. The things that reminded me of him, just like having a conversation with him.
Winter 24:51
Yeah.
Angelica 24:52
That’s been helpful.
Winter 24:54
That’s awesome. A little bit of inclusion in your day. I like that a lot. So, Nick was, you mentioned your husband, Nick, he was very, how has he handled all of this in this? The last 10 months?
Angelica 25:14
He like me, he has just been kind of all over the map because it’s just a roller coaster of emotions. It really is. But to start with, he just seemed so strangely serene. You know, I mentioned that when they first wheeled me into the recovery room, and I saw him there holding Ezra. He was telling me that another baby had been born. And I said, I started to cry. And he said, No, it’s okay, we’re grateful that their baby is okay, and grateful that everything is okay for them. He just kept repeating that word for the subsequent three or four weeks. I’m just so grateful and grateful, I had a chance to meet him and hold.
Angelica 26:02
As time passed, I could tell that he was definitely just trying, he was trying to kind of keep it together for me. To a certain extent, because he has definitely had his moments where he needs to be the strong one, or he just needs somebody else’s support. I kept telling him not to do that at the very beginning, because I knew that he was bound to. I just didn’t want him to feel like he had to bear the weight of everything, and do all the hard stuff, especially when you’re making plans for a funeral. One of the photos that I shared with you is the final draft of Ezra’s headstone. Nick actually designed that. So, you know, just having to do all of these hard things, and to not have help and support yourself. I just wanted him to know that he didn’t have to do that to himself, you know, that he is worthy of having help.
Winter 27:07
Yeah, I am actually a little curious about if Nick, how the process of designing Ezra’s headstone was for him. My husband, and I designed our we, we actually got a little bench for our son. I found it strangely therapeutic to do that, because it was like, I would be, you know, setting up a crib for him, or, you know, doing something, it felt like a thing I could do for him. Like I was gonna create something. So I’m just curious to know if Nick felt some sort of, like, Hey, I’m doing something for my son, like, I’m making him something, you know, like just interesting.
Angelica 27:53
You know, I had never asked him that specifically, but I know that after he would after he passed a couple of hours of work on the design. He would seem like he was pretty emotionally depleted.
Winter 28:09
Really?
Angelica 28:12
You know, but they came out so lovely. It just I can’t help but think of it as a labor of love.
Winter 28:21
Yeah.
Angelica 28:22
On his part.
Winter 28:23
Yeah, for sure. I that’s really cool that he did that. Because that is, I’ll be honest, I was totally checked out that fog had set in when we were planning funeral stuff. I was so grateful for Lee because he really just like I said, he, I felt like he stepped up. He was like, I gotta take care of this. I gotta take care of my family. This is the way I’m going to take care of my family as best as possible. So sounds like Nick was that way as well?
Angelica 28:53
Yeah. It is amazing. Oh, my gosh, it was amazing. Just how the shock affects you. There are so many beautiful things that I’ve heard other parents have done for their kids. I think to myself, that’s an obvious one. Why didn’t I do that too? Like, for example, at Ezra’s funeral there were no flowers. It was June. You know?
Winter 29:19
Yeah.
Angelica 29:21
I didn’t even think about the fact that there should have been flowers. Some people said that they played music. My head just was not there.
Winter 29:29
Yeah.
Angelica 29:31
And I don’t know why.
Winter 29:32
Well, I mean when was the last time you planned a funeral? Angelica, like really? It’s, it just is that you just don’t ever think you’re going to be planning a funeral, you know, at our age, right? So why would you know, to get flowers. The only reason why we had flowers for our son was because my mother in law said, usually, you get some flowers and I’m like, Oh, okay. We’ll order some flowers. Like Somebody had to tell me what to do. And I was grateful for that. Because like you said, I just didn’t have a head on my shoulders at that time I was completely out of it.
Angelica 30:08
It’s not like we didn’t have flowers. We had flowers.
Winter 30:14
Yeah.
Angelica 30:14
I think before all of us, we had one vase that would disappear every single time that we needed it. Now I have a closet full of vases. I almost kind of can’t stand having flowers in a vase in my house, just because of how many flowers that were, it’s almost a triggering thing.
Winter 30:35
Yeah.
Angelica 30:37
But I could have gathered together any one of those and had like, you know, a big bouquet for his funeral. My brain just was not there.
Winter 30:48
Yeah. That, I think, is completely understandable. It’s completely understandable. So I am curious, if you have had, if somebody did something for you, or said anything to you, that was like, you want to remember that. And it was so you, you really appreciated what they said or what they did for you, in the last 10 months.
Angelica 31:13
That varies. So that morning, the morning that Ezra was born, we were sitting in a hospital room, and flowers arrived. I don’t have the butterfly, the butterfly is somewhere else. But it was this arrangement from downstairs. It had a butterfly on it and had a card. It was from the neonatologists and nurse practitioners on my floor. Because they knew what had happened. It’s not like I had told anybody.
Winter 31:46
Yeah.
Angelica 31:46
But they knew what had happened. They cared enough to send me something to say we understand. This sucks. Since then, so many people have done the same that they’ve brought forward and I feel like I am eternally indebted to so many people. The list is just too long for me to really pinpoint any one particular person because
Angelica 32:15
I just felt so much love and support in a time when that kind of thing feels impossible. With a pandemic and with the concerns that you have of potentially making somebody else sick. You know, people who would come up and look at me and say, I’ve got a mask on you’ve got a mask on can I give you a hug? I think one thing I remember is that I hadn’t been hugged by anybody other than my husband and daughter for months, right. I got more hugs in the couple of days following my son’s death than I had from January, February on.
Winter 33:12
Yeah.
Angelica 33:13
I mean, it was just that human touch that I had forgotten was so necessary. They were there when I needed them. There were so many people who showed up, who I haven’t talked to in ages. But they offered to make food and take my daughter to the park and sit with me and cry with me. Like I was saying with my co-workers who sacrificed their own time off, so that I have a couple of extra weeks to pull myself together. To determine whether or not I was going to be able to go back to work. Now I feel like I have no choice. You know, how can I? How can I leave someplace full of some wonderful, amazing human beings?
Winter 34:07
Yeah.
Angelica 34:09
I just feel so grateful. Despite the awful nature of the experience, though. I feel so grateful to have so many people in my life who love me, it just gives you this, this renewed faith in humanity.
Winter 34:29
Yes, that is a perfect way of putting it actually. Because Yeah, we felt, yeah, just the love, like we just felt so cared for and loved. Sounds like you had a similar experience, which is very, it’s wonderful. It’s wonderful.
Angelica 34:47
And just hearing people wanting to talk about him. Even though it’s really awkward sometimes triggering things that people say regardless of how many of those I have countered, I just find that anybody who is willing to talk about him with me, I just appreciate them so much.
Winter 35:12
Yeah.
Angelica 35:13
Because I know that when you’re talking about a stillborn baby it’s kind of a conversation stopper. But anybody who looks at you and says tell me more, or I getcha, you know, you can talk, talk about him any time or call me anytime that you’re having a really rough go of it. Those people who have reached out to help when you have no clue what to do, when the only thing that you can say is, what do I do next? Because I think that was the question just cycling in my brain for, you know, in the hours and weeks following Ezra’s death. I was just thinking to myself, what do I do now? You know, I just need somebody to tell me what I need to do. Because I can’t make those decisions. Or I can’t make this. I can’t determine what needs to be done on my own anymore. My brain just is not there anymore.
Winter 36:24
Yeah, that’s. You say that and I was like, Oh, yeah, that’s exactly how I was. I could not wrap my brain around things that I needed to do. Like, yeah, thank goodness for people that kind of kept our lives together for those months after. Yeah. It’s just so traumatizing. It’s just so traumatizing. Is there? You have mentioned that people have said some awkward things, obviously. Is there anything that maybe is not the best thing to say to a lost mom that maybe has rubbed you a little wrong? I don’t want you to call anybody out. I don’t want you to. Yeah, I don’t want you to call anybody out. But if there’s anything that is because I know that people just want to know what to say, right? They just want to know what to say. And they kind of want to know what not to say I think so that it just makes it like not so awkward, I guess.
Angelica 37:22
To start with, like if at the very beginning, I really struggled with religious platitudes. You know, God has a plan for everything. You know, there’s a reason for everything. Just because I, my husband and I, we’re, we were raised Catholic, but we haven’t been practicing. So there was just a part of me that just couldn’t wrap my head around this idea that there was a, you know, at the moment that there was a reason for his death. I just thought that stung a little bit.
Angelica 38:01
But I think as time has passed that it’s become less triggering. But initially, it was extremely triggering. Then just anybody talking about, you know, somebody else’s pregnancy for somebody else’s baby, really close on. Really close to the loss itself.
Angelica 38:24
I remember there was a friend of mine who came in and she’s very sweet and asked her how she was doing because she’d asked me how I was doing. I was just trying to normalize things. In the days after we got home from the hospital. Oh, things are good. She was talking to me about a mutual friend of ours, she said, yeah you’re not going to see them for a couple of weeks. Because they’re going into quarantine for about two or three weeks before their baby’s born. But the babies do like early June or something like that. Early July, early July or something like that. Ezra was due on July 15. His c-section was scheduled for July 9. I just fell apart.
Angelica 39:10
So I think that just talking about babies and pregnancy in general can be good for green, but I think it’s so hard. It’s just so so hard. And I feel like anybody who is even willing to try should be given grace.
Winter 39:29
Yeah.
Angelica 39:30
Because they’re willing to enter that awkward zone with you. Knowing that, you know that not everything they say is going to feel just right. For every person. It’s so different. But I think the thing that helps the most is just all of those comments that are validating, you know, like giving those people the space to talk about what they’re feeling. Thinking and then saying, Yeah, it does suck. Yes, this is hard. Yes, I hear you. Just confirming that they’re not alone.
Winter 40:13
Yeah.The validating and the confirming of your feelings. I think sometimes we’re so apt to you know, like you mentioned before you kind of push away those feelings or you sweep them under the rug or you just kind of push them away like I’m not sad. I’m not angry, I’m not all of these things, I’m not depressed, I’m not anxious, whatever. We have these feelings and to have somebody say, yeah, this really is hard. And this is horrible. This is devastating. That helps us emotionally when somebody validates what I’m feeling.
Angelica 40:53
Yeah, that’s a great way of putting it. There is this book that one of our friends gave us. Actually, it was a whole family, they pulled together and they got a book, and then they got a little bunny rabbit. For Pippa, it looks like the bunny rabbit.
Angelica 41:11
It’s called the Rabbit listened. It’s the story about this little boy who had built up this tower with blocks. Then this, you know, this flock of black birds came down and knocked it down. He’s just sitting in the midst of this beautiful thing. Various animals are cutting through. You know, the bear says I want to be angry about it, you know, let’s be angry. But even the little boy doesn’t say anything because he doesn’t want to be angry at that point. So it just goes through these animals. At the end, it has a little bunny rabbit who just sits there. And then just comes and sits next to me a little bit quietly until the little boy is ready to say something. Then eventually the little boy doesn’t want to be angry, a little boy does not want to talk about what he remembers, and he doesn’t want to be sad if he tells him what to hide. The little rabbit is just sitting there just listening. So it’s a good reminder to me to do that for the other people in my life. Because I’m not the only one who lost someone.
Angelica 42:17
You know, my parents and Nick’s parents lost a grandchild. Our siblings lost a nephew.
Winter 42:25
Yeah.
Angelica 42:27
You know, our close friends. We always refer to them as aunts and uncles. I mean, they may well have lost a nephew as well. And, they all have really complex feelings around them. So, you know, no one can be together. And even though you’re not experiencing things the same way. You can be together and it helps so much.
Winter 42:50
Yeah. That grace that you give others as well. Is really important.
Angelica 42:57
Yeah.
Winter 42:58
So important because it’s really easy to forget that there are other people that lost someone important to them, too. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that just reminded me of my in-laws, who they love. They love our son so much. And they have expressed that. So that’s a good, that’s a good reminder. This has been a really wonderful conversation. I really appreciate all that you’ve said and shared with us. Is there any last bit of advice that you would like to share with either somebody that is going through this right now, or maybe somebody that’s supporting a lost mom or lost dad?
Angelica 43:44
Lost parents I would say, just be gentle with yourself. There is no wrong you’d agree. And anything for anybody, anybody whose parent has lost a baby or somebody who’s trying to support them to reach out, just continuing to continue to reach out for those resources. For those people who can help you there are so many wonderful ways that you could help each other through it. You know, when you’re ready, those resources will be there.
Angelica 44:23
You don’t have to go to a support group right away. You don’t have to start searching for other lost parents trying to grant yourself right away. But when the day comes that you feel like you’re ready they’ll be there. Those organizations will be there. There are actually support groups for families for family members. One of them is through the Star Legacy Foundation. They have a monthly meeting for grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, people who just want to be there. Just keep reaching out because for as lonely as this feels, you’re not alone.
Winter 45:16
Thank you so much Angelica, that’s some very good advice.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
