advice

Mom Miranda talks about how the grief journey has looked like for her and her husband Graham, after she gave birth to her son George who was stillborn at 39 weeks due to growth restriction, during the COVID-19 pandemic. She shares how having a support network, that includes a grief midwife, a grief doula, therapist, and support groups, has helped her process her loss, and shares advice on what to say and what not to say to a mom who has lost a baby. She also talks about how she remembers George with tangible things like necklaces, tattoos, and his memorial bench along the river.

Watch here (YouTube):

Listen here (podcast):

Time Stamps:

00:00 Welcome
01:34 Not going home after George was stillborn
06:50 Miranda’s sanctuary
11:43 Her new full-time job
20:22 Grief support groups
23:43 Running
30:33 Her husband Graham
35:43 Physical reminders of George
41:41 Things that were helpful and things that were NOT helpful

You might appreciate these other episodes:

• Watch/listen to Miranda‘s birth episode of son George: Click here
• Watch/listen to Tiffany‘s birth episode of daughter Khyana’s: Click here

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Full Transcription:

Winter 0:00
Welcome, everybody, this is Still A Part of Us. It’s a place where moms and dads get to talk about their kids that have died either in stillbirth or an infant loss.

Winter 0:08
We are so grateful to be back here with Miranda, she told the story of her son George. We’re going to talk to her a little bit more today about some things that she’s experienced as she has grieved his loss.

Winter 0:19
Once again, I am Winter and I want to just do a really quick warning of that we are going to be talking about stillbirth today and it is full of triggers. So please just be healthy and be safe. If you need to not listen to this episode, please do not listen to this episode. We just want everybody to be safe. So and if you are joining us as a lost mom or lost dad, welcome, we’re sorry that you’re part of this club that nobody wants to be a part of. If you feel the desire to subscribe to help others find other stories then hit the subscribe button. We can help each other out and support each other.

Winter 0:54
So Miranda, thank you again, so much for coming on today. I really enjoyed hearing about George and your experience in the UK. As having lost him about 10 months ago, 11 months ago, right at the time of this recording?

Miranda Markham 0:55
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been good to talk about him.

Winter 1:14
Yeah. Good. I’m glad. Just for a little bit of context. So it was about 11 months ago. What happened to George, how far along were you when he passed away?

Miranda Markham 1:23
Yeah, so I found out that George had no heartbeat when I was 39 weeks and one day pregnant. So I was ready to meet him. We were in the homestretch. It was my very first day of maternity leave, when we got the devastating news that his heart had just unexpectedly stopped.

Winter 1:44
Yeah. Please go listen to her birth, the birth episode of George because I just can think of all these terrible things that were I mean, all these terrible things that happen to Miranda, but it was also compounded with the COVID pandemic, and all of those wonderful things that come along with it right, it’s worth it’s worth a listen. So if you can jump over there, please do.

Winter 2:07
So Miranda, I know that you mentioned before, in your other episode that after George passed away, you and your husband Graham, basically escaped a little bit, you guys didn’t go back to your flat in the UK, in London, and you just ended up going to, you stayed in a hotel for a few days. Then you were in Edinburgh for a couple months and you made a point to say that Graham basically took care of you.

Miranda Markham 2:32
That’s true. I sometimes joke that I became the infant. I was waking up at night crying. I needed to be fed my breakfast. Who told when to? When to have a nap. I was afraid of the dark. I really turned a bit child like myself, and he really did take care of me. I wouldn’t have, I wouldn’t have got out of bed, I wouldn’t have fed myself properly. I don’t know how long it would have been until I did. But he really, I mean, he saved me in a way. Not only did he make sure I took care of myself, but he did things and arranged things to make sure that we were taking care of our mental health and I think escaping was probably one of the best things we did.

Miranda Markham 3:19
Although it was lonely, there was a certain comfort in being anonymous, or we were and one of the things that we did. I don’t know if anyone who’s listening has been to Scotland or to Edinburgh, but it was summertime. So arguably the best time to be there. We just did beautiful walks in nature. We climbed mountains as my physical recovery started getting better. We picked big mountains to climb. Full day hikes and I think that everything else in your life feels like a complete failure. There was something really uplifting about doing something that felt like an accomplishment.

Winter 3:55
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 3:57
Honestly, if it wasn’t for Graham, finding those mountains to climb and finding the direction driving us there planning at all. There’s no way I would have done any of it and honestly, I owe him such gratitude for just not giving up on me during that time. He was the only thing that kept me going.

Winter 4:19
Yeah, it’s amazing, especially those out it’s just it’s so the pain is so acute in those early days and you just you really don’t know how to function. I just Yeah, I remember thinking like I was pretty proud of myself when we got out of bed and had something nutritious to eat like in the morning.

Miranda Markham 4:36
It really does feel like a big accomplishment.

Winter 4:39
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 4:40
Simply having a shower, I blow drying my hair, you’re putting on actual clothes. I really felt like wow really an accomplished person and you step back and think of that what I was doing prior to George was comical and suddenly felt like a big deal in my life but it was baby steps. To rebuild the tiny, tiny stuff.

Winter 5:03
Yeah, I really, because you do feel there’s just that. Yeah, that first bit of grief is just so intense. Just yeah, it just takes over. I think so. Then how did you guys came back? After those two months, you came back from Edinburgh? What? What was that transition? Going back to your flat? Did you have an entire nursery all put up? What did you guys do about that?

Miranda Markham 5:30
That was hard because I knew it was there lurking and the thing that we had to deal with on our return. We had very kind friends that asked if we wanted them to talk everything out for us while we were gone and take it away. It was really nice of them to offer. But it was something I really wanted to do myself, I felt quite passionate that I wanted to put away his things the way I wanted to put them away. Even though he had never seen them or interacted with any of the things they were very much in my mind George’s things.

Winter 6:04
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 6:05
I remember very early, we entertained selling some of them. I just thought Absolutely not. George didn’t get to use these, no one will.

Winter 6:11
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 6:12
So I decided we would get a nearby storage room. I would pack everything up in neat, tidy labeled boxes. We’d bring them to this nearby storage room where I could visit his things when I wanted, which I continue to do to this day. I didn’t know the sort of ceremony after his funeral, I just put everything away. I think I was really adamant that I didn’t want the door to his room to just be permanently shut and be this sort of awful place that no one ever went in anymore. It was really important to me to turn his room into something like a nice space where we’d want to go.

Miranda Markham 6:50
So I kind of tore apart our living room and that room. I rearranged all the furniture and I turned it into this sort of budget, I called it a bit of a sanctuary. I put a bookshelf and loads of plants. A little desk where my computer is now and I spend a great deal of time in that room. There’s a little area on top of the dresser, where his ashes are and some of his things that I think are quite special. I don’t know, I just sort of feel like I’m there with him. I bought this beautiful light. It’s kind of like a bonsai tree with sort of pearlescent bulbs on the end, and I turn it on at night because I just don’t like that the room is dark at night. Oh, I’d like there to be a bit of ambient light in there. It just feels like there’s a presence in there. It probably all sounds a bit unnecessary. But it just makes that room feel very sort of alive and special. Not the kind of terrible tomb that we just shut away forever.

Winter 7:46
Yeah, no, I think that’s actually a great idea, too. Because, yeah, it could feel very, so sad. It sounds like you’re trying to give it a little bit of a different take a reframing of what that room is in. And it sounds like you’re in your home office kind of also, where you work right now.

Miranda Markham 8:03
Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah. So I spend a great deal of time there. It has memory boxes there, behind me on all my calls, and tonight sort of feels like I can be there with him. I I know people might find that hard to imagine, but I don’t know, it makes me feel close to him. I can think of him while I’m in there and just feel like his presence is there somehow.

Winter 8:25
Yeah. It sounds very, like a calming place for you. As you’ve gotten a little bit farther out, how were those days looking like? Because I think by then you were maybe are, how long was your maternity leave? Like how long were you able to take? Still on maternity? Oh, awesome yay! Okay.

Miranda Markham 8:47
Yeah. So it’s Yes, unlike the United States, we very kindly got a year as a maximum. So take a year off. I think there was some conversation with my employer that maybe I’d like to come back sooner, obviously. But I think it was working in the world of PR, which is in client service. I just simply don’t have the energy or the enthusiasm for that kind of work right now. I hold myself to very high standards professionally. I know that I can’t be reliable. I wouldn’t do that to clients, or to my team.

Miranda Markham 9:23
So we’ve worked out a different arrangement where I’m now the editor of a fitness website. Which is much more part time in terms of hours. It’s something I do on my own terms of my own time. If I need to disappear for a day because it’s a bad day, I’m not letting anyone down. I think that works really well for me right now. Because I think while I’m worlds away from where I was last June, there are still good days and bad days. If I was having one of those bad days and we had a client that needed something, there is a 0% chance I could be there for them. For that reason, I’m still sort of hanging on to this not leave for as long as I can.

Winter 10:05
Yeah, you might as well. I mean if you have the opportunity, that’s great. Was that easy to? I guess being at home is, obviously you guys are home because of COVID. Then Also being on maternity leave that did that. Did that give you the lux– Well, I’m not saying the luxury, but did that give you the time to process everything that had happened? Because this is the one thing that I’ve learned is that stillbirth is this big, huge shock, because you’re like, everything’s going great. Then everything is not going great and you have to do all of these things. It’s just a whirlwind of things that are just sad, terribly, and horrible. Then all of a sudden, you stop and you’re done. You’re like, What just happened? I always felt like I was in shock. So I’m wondering, was that time good to sit and think. How did you– have you gone about trying to process that grief? What happened?

Miranda Markham 10:57
I think it’s a really, really good question. I’m really grateful for being able to have this time. I think at first it was really difficult, because I’m quite a high energy person. My job was a huge part of my life. Fitness and running was a big part of my life. I wrote a blog. I scarcely had any free time, I was always on the move doing something. Generally, I don’t deal with aimlessness very well. So to have just shut off, everything in my life that contributed to my identity was massively shocking. It just completely rocked your sense of self. It took me months to try to rebuild, the only thing I could think to do was to basically make self care my new full time job.

Miranda Markham 11:49
So I was broken, and I needed to fix myself. I needed to do everything I could to get myself in the best shape I could mentally and physically. I had the time. So I’ve been doing things like meditating. I might have squeezed in like a 10 minute morning meditation in the past, I can spend one hour doing a deep meditation now. I read books voraciously. I indulged in old hobbies that I’ve long forgotten. I just went on long walks. Anything I could, that just felt like it was good and soothing for the soul.

Miranda Markham 12:27
He sort of was able to do it unapologetically. Because there was nobody demanding my time anymore. It took me a long time to stop feeling like I was wasting my time, and started reframing that as this is what I need to do to get better. I guess on top of that, also, working with a therapist as well has been helpful, I think, started working with trauma therapists pretty much the week after George died, and I think that was extremely helpful. I know that therapy is not for everyone. But I think in managing extreme grief and shock, having an expert in your corner, at least for me, was extremely helpful.

Miranda Markham 13:04
I often maintain that everyone should have a therapist regardless of whether you think you have problems or not. I mean, I think it’s just from a self development perspective, I think it is really helpful. But in the course, in dealing with trauma, I think it has been particularly useful. So being able to schedule those calls in the middle of the afternoon without worrying about work obligations, I think, has also been really helpful in terms of my recovery.

Winter 13:28
Yeah, and you had a trauma therapist. That’s very, I wish everybody just has a counselor, a therapist, and this person actually specializes in trauma that’s so interesting. Is there anything that has been pivotal or kind of aha moment type things that your therapist has brought up or helped you with?

Miranda Markham 13:53
Yeah, so I think, also good questions. I think there’s lots of different types of therapy out there. I would encourage people to do research if they are looking for a therapist. I think the most common type is CBD. So cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a sort of a talking therapy, very useful. What my trauma therapist does specifically as a technique called EMDR.

Winter 14:14
Oh, yeah.

Miranda Markham 14:15
Which you may have heard of, yeah. Which sounds completely wonky. It’s basically rapid eye movements, while you recount traumatic experiences. Even saying that it sounds truly awful. I’m not going to pretend that it’s not painful. We usually start the session by talking about what the most painful memory is, and sort of getting sucked in with that.

Miranda Markham 14:38
It’s hard. It’s hard work. But I think perhaps like many people, I was extremely skeptical at first. I just thought this is completely bonkers, like, how can this work and especially how can it work through zoom? Or through video conference? Is it even going to be effective through a screen? It’s one of those things where scientifically even though there’s enough research to show that it works. Scientists aren’t really in agreement about why it works. Which is interesting to me, the theories around it. It has to do with the way that the mind processes information similar to rapid eye movement, sleep. But as far as this kind of therapy goes, it’s a bit inconclusive as to why it works. All they know is that it does work.

Miranda Markham 15:22
So I thought, I mean, I’ll give it a try. If it’s completely nonsense, then I will try something else. The very first session after I had, we processed George’s that, basically his death and then birth. It was the most exhausting second to the actual event itself, in terms of in terms of it being chaotic. I was so tired after I slept for like three hours after the call.

Miranda Markham 15:51
Then the next day, we were speaking to a bereavement doula, another person in my support network. She asked me to describe what had happened. This was many weeks following George’s death. I remember it was the first time that I was able to talk about what had happened without being a blubbering mess. I didn’t cry, I finally could, I could talk about it without sort of almost a bit of space from it, it was still very sad, very emotional. But it was like, there was just a bit of space between the events and how I felt. I remember thinking straight away, like, that’s really interesting. That, to me, seems like a direct result of the therapy we just did.

Winter 16:38
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 16:39
I think I’ve seen that trend over and over again, as we’ve worked together. Where things that feel really intensely emotional, whether it’s grief, or sadness or anger, they’re just so debilitating almost in their intensity, after our sessions. That feeling is still there. But it’s not quite as explosive or all consuming, though, I can sort of engage with it if I want to, or not, I sometimes describe it as it’s like, as if it’s in a glass box. I can see it and say sort of hello there anger, to shut the door if I want. But I can also open it and go be with it if I want to. It’s probably a really difficult thing to explain, I think. But if you’re open to it, and you have, you have the option to have a therapist who practices EMDR, I would highly recommend that for people who have suffered the shock of stillbirth for sure.

Winter 17:36
My husband Lee actually has done EMDR off of it. Another friend recommended it when she had experienced quite a traumatic experience in her life. He has found it extremely helpful as well. So I will second your recommendation there.

Miranda Markham 17:54
I’m glad I don’t sound like a crazy person.

Winter 17:56
He came back and he’s like, I am so tired. I remember him specifically. He would just be like I’m exhausted, because you just repeat things over and over again. Just to kind of that’s how he explained it to me. So it was interesting, but he felt like it was extremely, very, it was very good for him. So yeah, so I second that recommendation.

Miranda Markham 18:14
Good!

Winter 18:15
Did you so it sounds like you have a great little team that has helped you through all this. No, seriously like and I was like, I don’t think people realize that they need to kind of create a team to get past these. Such a traumatic event, I think. It sounds like you have a bereavement doula, up Abreu, you have your therapist, um, any other people that have have that seem to be a part of your, your quote unquote, team and because I would encourage people to create a team like that, I think that is a great way to put it is like you need help to get out of this, where you’re at right now.

Miranda Markham 18:54
I would agree 100% I know. I mean, even in the earliest days, if you had told me go find different elements of support. I would still be in a very much in a state of I’m a victim and everything was hopeless. It’s okay to be there for a little bit, but not forever. But as soon as I started taking a bit of control, I guess, or feeling like I needed to be able to sort of collect all these experts in my network to help me. I sort of created this little army of people to assist me, who all have different areas of expertise.

Miranda Markham 19:31
So you mentioned obviously the doula and my therapist. Another one was the bereavement midwife who was assigned to us at the hospital. I mean, we didn’t have a choice about who that was. So I think we maybe just got quite lucky because she’s turned out to be a huge source of support, even almost 11 months on, we’re still in touch. I don’t know if that’s ordinary for her or not, but she’s, she’s been amazing. Any question I have about quite literally anything. She is just an email. From Calaway, which has been nice to have a person like that in your life, I also investigated quite a few support groups or maybe lost, which, due to COVID, any of the in person support groups were canceled. So again, much like my therapy, I was skeptical to be digital version with VHS.

Winter 20:20
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 20:22
But I think I was pleasantly surprised to find it, at least in the early days, there’s a baby loss charity called sans, that held a monthly meeting on zoom, that I joined for the first couple of months after George’s death. They were hugely helpful, because I think they ‘re run by people, mostly women who have lost babies, but they’re many, many years on from that loss. Many have gone on to have at least one or several other children. The one woman who led most of the calls lost a baby something like 22 years ago. So I mean, she’s quite a long way on that journey.

Winter 20:59
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 21:00
I think I found speaking to those people extremely helpful, and hopeful. Because I think what I found with some of the online forums and Facebook pages is that it’s too many people who are in the midst of their own grief, people who have lost babies yesterday or a week ago, or a month ago, and it was just stories of tragedy after tragedy after tragedy. While there is some sort of camaraderie in that, and it’s an element where he sort of doesn’t feel as alone, it also feels your anxiety because it feels like this happens all the time.

Winter 21:35
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 21:37
It’s like, I suddenly know 1000 ways the baby can die. I thought this was a rare occurrence. It’s like, every possible disaster that could happen, has happened. I don’t think that those forums had anything to offer me because it’s not anyone supporting each other, if it’s everyone talking about their own grief.

Miranda Markham 21:54
So, for me, the best thing was the groups where people were much further on in that journey, and could talk to me from a more hopeful future place. In doing that, I eventually connected with one of the women from the charity who lives nearby who lost a baby boy in a similar situation to George, but eight years ago, and she’s gone on to have two boys since then. We’ve gone for walks. We talk on whatsapp. I asked him lots of questions about what did you do about this? When this happened, how did you react? I know, there’s no rulebook for how to deal with the death of your child, but I think to just have somebody who, when they say, I get it that they really sincerely do. To tell you what they did, I think is there’s been a huge source of comfort,

Winter 22:41
That is great. I have found that I’ve, we’ve gravitated towards the people that are a little farther out, especially at the very beginning, because you’re like, I just don’t think I’m going to be okay. And you look okay. It’s like, you look okay, okay, we might be able to do this. So

Miranda Markham 23:00
I think that was it. It’s like, you seem like a normal functioning.

Winter 23:03
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 23:03
You have two healthy kids. You’re so sad about your baby. I see that because I met this particular woman, the place where we decided to meet the first time was at her son’s Memorial tree. Oh, so we looked at it. She’s a runner. So she ran there. I ran there. Yeah, we met well, but I wish this was all very, felt very appropriate. I get quite tickled when people say comments to me, like, Oh, I know how you feel. It’s like you may have an idea of what grief is like, but you don’t have this particular feeling. Unless you are, of course, this woman who I’ve connected with who has very much been in my situation. Where she says stuff like that, I think you do actually know and I believe you. You’ve come out the other side and seem to be a functioning contributing member of society who actually appears happy. I find that quite helpful.

Winter 23:54
Yeah, yes, it is very hopeful. We need that at the very beginning. I think we need that. You have, you were a very big runner, a very big you’re in the fitness industry. It sounded like the running had kind of petered off for you for a while there.

Miranda Markham 24:14
It did. I think I have a very complicated relationship with exercise these days. When I was pregnant with George, I had a real chip on my shoulder. I think about not letting the pregnancy impact my very sort of rigid and high intensity fitness routine for as long as possible. I wasn’t determined to do anything unsafe, of course, but I was very adamant that I was going to continue being as fit and active as I could be. Maintaining that same level of activity for as long as I felt I could. I ran a half marathon when I was six weeks pregnant. I continued going to orange theory classes until I was shut down from COVID. But until I was 20 weeks pregnant in hindsight, I think those things were too much.

Miranda Markham 25:03
There is an element of me that believes that level of intensity, especially in the early days, contributed to George’s death. I know practically, that that’s not true. I’ve asked multiple medical professionals if excessive exercise can cause death, which was growth restriction. They all say no, that wouldn’t have been the cause at all. Even when I wanted to run that half marathon, I remember asking my GP if it was okay. The rule of thumb was essentially that if you were fit before, and you were training for this before you got pregnant and you feel okay, carry on.

Miranda Markham 25:39
But I think I know, in my heart, there were many, many times where I pushed it when I didn’t feel okay. Because I felt like I had a point to prove. So after everything, I think there was a period where I was almost sort of using exercise to punish myself a little bit like, forcing myself to try and get back into this fitness routine, both because I needed to get back to where I was as quickly as possible. But also, because my body was a reminder of loss. I think all through pregnancy, people tell you, and they certainly told me, that when you are pregnant, that all the changes to your body is worth it. That, yes, you might gain weight, and you’ll be a little softer. You might not be physically where you were, but it’ll all be worth it. I think that’s really only true if you get to take your baby home with you. Because when you don’t, your body is this reminder of how much it failed you and how it just kind of strategically let you down. I hated myself for it. I hated it. I hated looking at myself, every time I did, it was just a reminder of how I failed.

Miranda Markham 26:57
So I started exercising a lot to try and just get back to where I was. So I didn’t have to constantly remind myself, every time I looked in the mirror, I think I’m past that in a much healthier place now. But running is still hard for me. Because I mean, it’s a high intensity activity, and I just never kind of fell in love with it. Again, I’m not as possessed by it as I once was. It’s hard because it was such a big part of my identity. I ran because I was a runner. That’s who I was. When you don’t do that anymore, it’s really Who are you? So I’m reevaluating, I’m trying to find different ways of staying active, that are more about feeling good and feeling healthy. Then they are about beating myself in the gym. Which I think was perhaps maybe where I was bordering on before was just like it was always like, harder, faster, heavier. Otherwise, it wasn’t good enough, it was a waste of time. I think I really need to reframe that meaning is sometimes actually just like a walk outside is, is fine. Also exercise

Winter 28:06
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 28:06
You don’t need to be dripping in sweat and on the verge of vomiting for it to count. So it’s hard work. This is a hard area of my life. It probably sounds trivial to some people who might be listening to this compared to everything else. But it’s, I’m really working on my relationship with it.

Winter 28:24
Yeah, I understand where, where you’re coming from just because like, when you do feel like, well, there’s a couple things. What do you feel like your body has betrayed you. Taking care of your child. Right, like that, that in itself is one issue that I’ve dealt with myself. Then the other issues that there was the winter before and then there’s the winter after right? Like it’s the Miranda before and the Miranda after. It feels like now that you’re I feel like I’m a new person. Like I’m a different person. Something’s different about me because of this, this little event, that little big event that happened in my life. I’m just I don’t know, like, I always feel like, Can I go back to that person that was kind of innocent? Did all these things that you did, there’s like associations with that old self that sometimes are like, Oh, that’s that’s not who I am anymore. So just interesting. I,

Miranda Markham 29:23
I understand that I feel like I often now divide my life into before George and after. I look at photos sometimes of myself from several years ago, and I think I don’t even know that person.

Winter 29:37
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 29:37
Who is that? Sometimes that makes me really sad. I get quite nostalgic for that sort of easy ignorance. So I kind of lived my life with this very privileged life where I’ve never really experienced anything that bad and just assumed that I never would. It’s hard now to imagine a life where part of my life maybe doesn’t include the word runner. It includes the words of bereaved parents. That’s not really what I wanted to add to the list of words that describe me. But it’s part of my identity now. So it’s a work in progress.

Winter 30:16
Yeah,we all are works in progress. It’s, ah, yeah, it’s frustrating when you’re like, Oh, this is not what I planned it to be. Or this is not what I envisioned my life to be like, and so, but this happens. It is what it is. I know that. It sounds like Graham has been a huge support to you. I’m wondering if you saw a difference between how you guys grieved, the loss of George, in this last year?

Miranda Markham 30:46
Yeah, definitely. I think, Well, I mean, anyone that has been through this or done any research or looked up anything related to grief. I mean, I think it’s a very common understanding that men and women grieve very differently by first hand experience. So that is extremely true. I think in the early days, Graham basically fell into a kind of autopilot mode, he realized that I couldn’t handle basically anything. He took it on himself to manage all of the practicalities and the administrative stuff around George’s death. I often don’t realize that there are actually a lot of admins associated with the death of someone. You have to register the death with the council, and you’ve got to fill out all this paperwork.

Miranda Markham 31:37
On the more personal side there were loads of family members that had to be informed and communicated with and they knew not to contact me, because Graham told them not to, and also my phone was off for weeks.

Winter 31:50
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 31:51
But I think it was quite troubling for people to not be able to see or speak to me in those early days, or at least I’ve heard from others that they were quiet, because I just disappeared, they didn’t know how I was. So Graham took on the role of Chief communications officer he then managed every incoming communication from family and friends. Regardless of what the questions were.

Miranda Markham 32:14
It was a full time job, it was a lot of work. He shielded me from a lot of stuff. I mean, and terribly around the same time, many of our close friends were also expecting babies. He very carefully kind of managed the details around that. Making sure that I wouldn’t see anything or hear anything as much as he could. It still happened, of course, but trying his best, you’re trying to do it in the most sensitive way possible. I think when, when the bulk of that was done, which arguably took many, many months, I think it was only then that he started realizing that he hadn’t really actually processed anything around George’s death. He’s sort of. He had his nightmares, it was very unusual for him. His job was quite stressful at the time. He just was, he was a bit burnt out. But he’s a problem solver. He’s extremely resourceful. So I think he recognized that this was a problem. Also he is self aware enough to know that he needed something he needed help with some kind of. So he also found a therapist who he worked with. Certainly not as long as I’ve been, but for, I think six weeks or so sessions. I think he found that really useful.

Winter 33:34
That’s good.

Miranda Markham 33:36
I think in all of it, I think we just stayed really close in terms of communicating with each other, which I know is quite hard for some couples. Maybe if communication wasn’t the strong point in the relationship before. Throwing a crisis into the next doesn’t usually help.

Winter 33:51
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 33:52
So I’m very grateful that we were probably already decent communicators in the first place. I think that helps. He’s also just relentlessly optimistic. Like to a ridiculous point where sometimes I’m like, I just want you to say things suck. Agree for five seconds. He’s constantly looking on the bright side. Sometimes it’s infuriating. You feel like the world is just closing in on you. You just want somebody to just sit with you and just tell you like, Yes, it is. It is all bad. But like, most times, it was what I needed to hear. He never gave up on me. I think it would have been really easy to give up on me because I wasn’t a good version of myself for a long time. So he just had no he just kept he kept he just kept on being supportive and his amazingly optimistic self. He was always positive for our future, which I think helps both him and I both passionate about sort of self development as well. Encouraging us to do things together like meditate, or do self improvement. Normally in courses stuff that we could do together like that, where that was both good for him and good for me. So, if I could summarize it, it’s probably that his grieving process is very kind of practical. Very, or the problem that I resolved.

Winter 35:14
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 35:15
I think that’s very ordinary, or common, I should say, for men to assume that role. I think, from what I read, and what I hear it sounds like losses, men do that. But it does often mean that they don’t process their emotions. They do bubble up down the road. That may still happen. I think he’s very aware of that. That may still happen. But my hope is that if it does, I will be in a place where I can support him.

Winter 35:40
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 35:41
I owe him.

Winter 35:43
Yeah, we all owe our spouses big time. Yeah, exactly. He sounds like you guys sound like you have done very well, trying to stay close together and to support each other when the other person may not be at their best.

Miranda Markham 35:58
Yeah. I hope though, I think if there’s any silver lining, if anything, I think that it’s our relationship that has remained good. It’s certainly not been without its challenges. But sure, I know that in lots of situations where babies died, it often brings couples to the end of their relationship. That’s just another layer of tragedy on top of an already very trying situation. I’m very thankful that it wasn’t the case for us.

Winter 36:28
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 36:29
I sincerely don’t know how I could have managed if things went a different way.

Winter 36:34
Yeah. I want to jump over and just talk about anything that you do specifically to remember George, I know you have your office, that is kind of a space that you get to remember him and his remains are there as well. Are there any other physical things that you have that remind you of him, or you try to bring into your life so that you can, you’re reminded of him.

Miranda Markham 36:58
There are lots of things. I’m quite like a sentimental person, I like physical things to sort of look out or like touch and feel. In the absence of a lifetime of memories with a person, it’s really hard to do that for a baby that you didn’t get a chance to get to know. But one of the big things and I was very convinced by this very early on that I wanted it, we had a memorial bench installed on the river outside her house in London, which is, sort of kilometer long, maybe mile long River. I’d spend endless hours walking on that river when I was pregnant. I imagined one day walking on it with George and feeding ducks with him. Spending a sunny summer day sitting in the grass and having really fond memories and walking there. I always look at the memorial benches that are already there. I like reading them and thinking of the people that have died in my memory. I thought, well, we have to get a bunch for George because I think having him cremated means we don’t have a gravestone or somewhere to go and visit. So the bench now becomes a place for you where if I’m feeling like I want to go and be with him, I can sit on his bench and think of him. Maybe fortunately, or unfortunately, I picked what I perceive to be the best spot on the river for the bench. So the bench is almost always occupied. Oh, of course. Especially when it’s sunny. So every time I think I’m going to go sit on jargons it’s usually someone there, that also puts a smile on my face.

Winter 38:30
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 38:30
That means that somebody has read his name, and they’re thinking of him. Next year, I eventually also had a tree planted. Because I really liked the idea that he can’t grow big and strong, then the tree can for him. The Tree of the maple tree, which sort of a Canadian nod to his parents. It’s a sort of, I think it’s just a nice sort of thing every time I leave this button like, I can see it there.

Miranda Markham 38:58
People often said if you move away from London, will you be sad, but I just thought no, because I think it’s this thing that will stay there forever. Anyone that passes by will see this beautiful tree with a beautiful bench and they’ll read his name. They’ll think of him and in terms of keeping his memory alive. I think that’s felt very important to me. So it took a long time in many emails with the local council to get that sorted but it was finally installed in November of– Oh, wonderful. Not the best time in London for an outdoor bench. It was basically a mud pit for three months.

Winter 39:36
But it’s been done so I think that’s so that’s so sweet. I yeah, any other things you want to share.

Miranda Markham 39:44
A few other things I don’t know with any of my friends or family will listen to this. So that might come as a surprise to them. But both Graham and I got tattoos. Surprise. We didn’t tell anyone. I mean they’re not certainly a sort of crazy fullback tattoo. Mine is on my wrist, it’s the little lowercase letter G, where the tail leads up into a heart that looks like a balloon. Graham’s has the same as on an on forearm instead of his wrist. I don’t know, I just looked at it all the time. Sometimes the sleeve of my shirt just shows a little balloon poking out. Every time I look at it, it just makes me think of him. The little g was because well, we were sometimes referring to him as little G. Graham was the big G and George was

Winter 40:33
Oh, that’s so sweet.

Miranda Markham 40:36
It’s small and it’s subtle. For me, it was important, because I wanted something visible on my body that people might ask me about, because then it gives me a reason to talk about him.

Winter 40:47
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 40:48
Especially to people who may not have ever even known he existed. This was something we came up with in the days in early June following his death. We’re both very convinced that we would do this with St. Paul again, as soon as COVID allowed tattoo Pro. So we snuck in there in November, just.

Winter 41:08
Oh, yeah.

Miranda Markham 41:10
I mean, the tattoo is so simple. It took all of the gods 30 seconds to put on my body. I mean, for anyone that knows me, I was very not not opposed to tattoos, but I was very much the person that was never ever going to get one. I could never possibly think of anything important enough to put on my body forever. This seemed like the thing, the most

Winter 41:30
important enough there. So I want to look into his eyes. One of my favorite parts of this part of the interview is that I like to know what people have done and said that were so helpful to you that you’re like, if you’re going to say something to somebody that has lost a baby, then this is something that you might want to consider. Let’s just talk about some of those things that people did or said that felt extremely helpful for you.

Miranda Markham 42:01
Yeah, sure. I think I said this to friends and family at the beginning. One of the things they often said was what can we do? They wanted us to come up with the things that they could do to support us. That was really hard, because we had no idea. We didn’t have any idea for a long, long time. But I think the thing that helped the most was just to check in with us regularly. Instead of asking let me know what I can do to help you, the people that said things like, I’m going to call you on Tuesday next week and check in with you. Or let’s have a call every Thursday morning, and just chat. That was so I know, it sounds like the simplest thing on earth. But having someone else make the executive decision on that was helpful at a time where I was incapable of basically even feeding myself.

Miranda Markham 42:57
The other thing was that there was an appointment to keep me accountable for it was something to look forward to when everything else in my life had evaporated. Because the worst thing was feeling like everyone has forgotten about us. Or that they’ve sent their obligatory ‘ ‘I’m so sorry” message and disappeared. The people that stayed close and connected to us. Long after the initial days and weeks following George’s death were invaluable to me. They didn’t have to do much. I mean, I think there was this real sort of sense with people that they had to have to say the perfect thing or say something that takes away the pain. It’s a fool’s errand because it’s impossible. Yes, there was nothing that could have made me feel better. But the single best thing people did was just to, just to check in. When they asked how I was, I said I was terrible, to just be okay with listening to how terrible I really was. Do not try to sugarcoat it or make it sound better or look for a silver lining. Either No, try to just take away that pain, just to allow me to be sad. I think that was really nice. On a more practical note, I think some people sent food, which I think can be really nice. But I think I said this to you before, there’s like so many frozen lasagna as a girl. It was very helpful to have things kind of out there ready that you could make, especially in the early days when I couldn’t cook anything and I didn’t want obviously the lion’s share of the work to falter Graham. That was helpful. I would just say maybe check in with the rest of your friends and family. Make sure you’re not overloading the poor person.

I think the other thing was when people actually asked me about George. People were so afraid to talk about him. Even say his name and for the very brave friends and families that tried. I’m really thankful to them. Because one thing I think people don’t necessarily realize is that the mother of the baby that died still had a baby. I think there was a part of me that still really wanted to talk about him. Nobody asks you all the normal questions, they asked somebody when they had a baby. Nobody asked me what the birth was like, or why we picked the name we did. For the few people that did bravely venture into that territory, I will be forever thankful for them. I think for anyone listening, if you’re worried about asking those questions to a friend or family member that lost the baby, maybe to start by asking if it’s okay, if you ask a question. Some people said things like, Is it okay, if I asked you, about George? Or would you like to tell me about George’s birth? And I think being able to make that decision myself? And either say, yes, I do want to tell you about this or no, I don’t, was really helpful. It was certainly much more helpful than people just saying, I’m so sorry. I can’t imagine how you feel. Good luck with your grief. I’ll talk to you when you’re better.

Winter 46:17
Right? Yeah.

Miranda Markham 46:20
I don’t mean to us, or I don’t mean to trivialize those sorts of messages, I think people, they were doing the best they could with the words they had available to them. I definitely don’t expect people to know the right thing to say, it is really hard. I wouldn’t have known the right thing to say to me either. In fact, I probably would have used a lot of those phrases, for lack of even any experience with grief myself before George’s death. But

Miranda Markham 46:47
I think if I can say anything that was helpful is to not be afraid to mention the baby’s name, and to allow the family to talk about that baby without being visibly uncomfortable or, or trying to shut it down. Because it’s too sad.

Winter 47:05
Yeah.We just want to talk about our kids. Right? I think that there’s a sense of pride in being able to say that I birthed that, you know, I gave birth My child, that is like a big deal. You’re right. People don’t ask about the details. I remember, a good friend of mine was dropping off some food after we lost our son. She’s like can I ask you a question? Can you tell me about the birth? I was like, Yeah I want to talk about that. Because it’s a big, in itself a big accomplishment to have given birth. That was your first time too?

Miranda Markham 47:39
Exactly, exactly. People don’t know if they should, because they’re so afraid of upsetting the grieving person. I get that I do. Because the worst thing someone would feel as if they just cause you more pain and upset you more. But I think I don’t want to speak for everyone. But I think for me, the thing that was most painful was feeling like I couldn’t talk about it.

Winter 48:02
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 48:02
I was having to pretend that George never existed because it was too uncomfortable for other people. That’s just another layer of just insult to injury with the loss of a baby is that not only are you grieving, and going through shock. Dealing with this tremendous tragedy, you feel like you have to do it alone, because it’s too horrifying for anyone else to engage with.

Winter 48:24
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 48:25
For those brave friends that allowed me to talk to them about something that was truly their worst nightmare. I will be very thankful to them forever. Because those moments were really important to me. For the ones that are just out to the normal questions about giving birth and having a baby. They didn’t make me feel like I was invalidated from being a mom. I think that’s really important.

Winter 48:50
Yeah, that is so so important. I want to bring up one thing that you mentioned, we’ve talked about your friend before, and she was the one that actually referred you to us. You said something about what she did. I want you to repeat it again. Because she because I think that it was really great. She did something that was kind of out of the ordinary, right? She found a podcast and said, Hey, I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from. She did something that was a little different. I’m not saying like, join our community if you want to, but she did something that was just trying to understand what you’re experiencing. That is huge. I think.

Miranda Markham 49:32
I think I had a couple friends who I think displayed an extremely evolved level of emotional intelligence. That Sakina sort of realizes that they have no idea what I might be going through. In an effort to try and help me find podcasts like yours, or read books about baby loss. So that they were better equipped to have those conversations. I mean, that That, to me, is kind of the next level. level of grief support that I wouldn’t expect most people are capable of doing. But this particular friend found was basically looking for ways to understand something that she has no, no ability to understand or know, sort of anything in her life that was similar. For that reason, she was able to just so much more easily talk to me about things because she suddenly realized what was okay to ask and not ask. Just felt a bit empowered to be able to even talk to me at all. Her and her husband were hugely supportive in the early days. It was making sure that they mentioned George and remembered his milestones. Every second of the month by sending a message saying they were thinking of him and lighting a candle for him. I mean, people don’t have to do that. That’s above and beyond, but for the ones that did in the world to me.

Winter 50:53
Yeah. I think that, I just think, Oh, you’re so lucky to have good friends. You know, like, yeah,

Miranda Markham 51:00
It’s wonderful. Having I think it was, I mean, in the absence of also being able to see anyone in person because of the lockdown, which was seemingly endless. That was also a huge help, because I think it was very easy to be in Greece, to isolate yourself, and obviously very easy to isolate yourself in a lockdown. I think it’s quite easy to be forgotten, in the midst of everyone else struggling and suffering to a degree. It’s easy to get caught up in your own world as well. So for those that kind of put their own troubles aside, and remember to send me a text message or, took the time to listen to a podcast or read a book. I mean, I really, I can’t say enough about how much that meant to me. So people are listening and you have something you feel capable of doing. I really would encourage it as hard as it is, this is a hard topic. It’s heavy, it’s not easy. But if you can do that, and allow it to educate yourself to be better for your friends, or your family, they will notice.

Winter 52:04
Yes, they will notice. There’s so few people that do that above and beyond those things. On the flip side, are there some things that you would probably recommend not saying and or doing that were maybe that graded on you, or kind of made you mad or anything like that? Because those are the things that I think people want to try and avoid? Yeah, let’s hear that and anything that in particular that–

Miranda Markham 52:34
There are a few things and I think there I may offer subtle adjustments.

Winter 52:40
Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah we always like those.

Miranda Markham 52:42
I think it will help people. I mentioned this before, but I think one of the most common phrases that we heard, which was the sign off to virtually every text, message, and email that we received was, let me know if there’s anything I can do to help. I hate that phrase. I know that phrase comes from a place of good. And please, if any friends and family are listening, and you said this, to me, this is not me saying you did the wrong thing. But I think it was impossible for me to ever let what you could do to help because I had no idea. Even if I had the capacity to come up with something, I already felt so vulnerable. The last thing I was going to do was to reach out to somebody and say, Please, can you do this for me? Right? I just simply wouldn’t have done it.

Miranda Markham 53:32
I think for the friends and family who instead just took the executive decision and said, Hey, I’m going to do this thing. You tell me if this is helpful or not exponentially more helpful. So even small things like I’m going to call you next Tuesday, or we’re going to send you a food bundle that’s going to arrive on this day. We’ve, I don’t know, booked you an appointment for something at this place. It doesn’t really matter what it is.

Miranda Markham 53:32
Obviously, it depends on the person that you’re speaking to. I mean, you would know your grieving person best, but I think allow them to tell you yes or no, instead of putting the onus on them to come up with the solution for you. Yes. That was hard for me, because it felt like sort of a throwaway comment where it was just like, Alright, well, I’ve put the offer out there. And if I don’t hear from them, I guess I don’t need to do anything now. I know a lot of situations that were lost I have heard from people.

Miranda Markham 54:27
Again, this is not to say that they’ve done the wrong thing. But I think for those that tried and just made an effort to come up with a solution was a lot more helpful in the early days. I think now I’m much better at saying what it is I want or don’t want. That’s only with the benefit of 11 months of even understanding my own triggers in my own my own heart really. So I think that’s one thing. Yes. The other one is a very sensitive one. But one of the things that happens really frequently and continues to happen is a lot of friends, or women in my network, shared stories of their own loss mostly earlier or early, maybe early or late miscarriages, or something like that.

Miranda Markham 55:20
On the one hand I know that people share those stories as a way to relate and kind of help me feel less alone. To show that they have some experience with loss in a way. But I think I would just caution people to be a bit careful about the way they share those stories with somebody who’s experienced a stillbirth. I might suggest instead that you ask if they want to hear about your story first, before you just unload your story on them. For example, say Would it be okay if I told you about my own baby loss story? Or would you like to hear about my experience with miscarriage? Because I think there was a time where I did want to hear those stories, and I was receptive to them. But there were also a lot of times, I definitely was not, and to be blindsided with those stories is just a message in your inbox, or a method of Facebook Messenger message from someone you hadn’t spoken to in many years. It was really, it’s tough, because then I feel like I need to then offer empathy and support when I don’t have a lot to give right now on that front. Equally, I don’t have any experience of miscarriage. So I don’t want to pretend like my situation is the same. Similar to the way I would hope that they wouldn’t necessarily think that theirs is the same.

Miranda Markham 56:36
Comments that really prickled me were when people had experienced an early miscarriage who said things like, I know exactly how you feel, or I’ve been there. I thought to myself, and being there it’ll hold is not the same thing at all. While there are elements of shared grief there, there are some similarities and that stories are our stories.

Miranda Markham 56:59
I often try to use the analogy sometimes with people that it’s like, it’s like telling someone in a wheelchair that you understand what it’s like to be paralyzed because you broke your leg once. Like, you might understand what it’s like to be inconvenienced by crutches but you most certainly don’t know what it’s like to be paralyzed. Maybe that’s a crude analogy, but I feel like it’s similar in a way and that any loss, of course, is tragic. There are similarities in the grief that accompany it. But I think I would just caution, women who have experienced a miscarriage to just tread a bit carefully when you share those stories with someone who’s had a late term loss, because the experiences are quite different.

Winter 57:41
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 57:42
So just to maybe ask for us if they want to hear that story.

Winter 57:45
Yes. Yeah. That’s a good way to do it. Just letting people know. Yeah.

Miranda Markham 57:52
Yeah. Sorry. I think that was all I wanted.

Winter 57:55
Okay, perfect. Any other? It sounds like keep going, let’s hear it was, here’s some more things that you would perceive.

Miranda Markham 58:04
I do know one other thing that the last thing was I think, I think phrases along the lines of this happened for a reason, or it was God’s will. Or you will realize down the road why this happened, or it’ll make you a better person or any comment that seemed to suggest that there was a reason why George died, some grand design by the universe really rattled me.

Winter 58:32
Yeah.

Miranda Markham 58:34
It rattled me because it made me feel like if I don’t change my life radically, or do something grand. Like I don’t know, devote my life to placenta research or open the wing of a hospital named after George. I’ve somehow missed the point of his death. I suddenly felt this enormous pressure to do something grand that if I wasn’t then I was messing this up somehow. This notion that there’s this God that this is a sort of doling out punishment like this is, is not a helpful thing to say. Even though that may be your belief, and that’s perfectly within your right to have it. I think those might be better, but are kept to yourself. There’s no doubt that having a stillbirth or any sort of loss changes you in a way. Lots of people’s lives do change quite dramatically as a result. But that’s a symptom. That’s an outcome. That wasn’t a strategy by the university.

Winter 59:34
Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Miranda Markham 59:36
So I think I would just basically eliminate those phrases, from anything to get rid of it.

Winter 59:46
They’re just not helpful. They are not helpful at all. They just kind of make you feel the lost parent makes you. They just feel worse. Yeah. It’s just a lot of pressure.

Miranda Markham 59:58
I know that again, I do just want to say that I know that all of these things come from a place of good. Anyone that said things like this to me, I never, I didn’t get mad. I’m not mad. I just think they’re in hindsight. And with the benefit of experience and time to reflect on this, there are different things that would have been more helpful. So I think if this helps someone say better things, to someone who is grieving in the future, that makes me feel like George’s life hadn’t had impact.

Winter 1:00:31
Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much, Miranda, this has been such an enlightening conversation. I would like to ask you, though, one last thing, is there anything? Any last bit of advice that you would want to give to loss moms, loss dads, and maybe those who are supporting them or helping them?

Miranda Markham 1:00:53
I think for those that are supporting them, I think one thing I’d just like to leave people with is to just, if you can try to get a bit comfortable with sadness. I know that sounds weird. But we have the sort of cultural notion that sadness is bad, and that we have to make it go away. If there’s a sad person, we have to get away because it’s contagious, or something. But all that really does is make the grieving person feel more lonely.Like you have to just grieve in silence. All of these things happen in your mind while you’re alone. You feel like you can’t talk to anyone about it.

Miranda Markham 1:01:34
Then there’s a period of time that goes by where we’ve decided that’s the prerequisite time in which a grieving person can be grieving. But after that, we then close the door on that, and you’re normal, and you’re fine. And we never speak of it again. Honestly, I think that it will be damaging ways to treat grief. As a society, as a human race, we have to get better at this because everyone is going to experience some kind of loss in their life. No, it’s not going to be the loss of a baby. But a parent or grandparent or close friends.

Miranda Markham 1:02:08
There are similarities. I agree broadly how to say we are terrible at supporting people. So I don’t think you need to say the right thing, or be obsessed about saying the right thing. You didn’t even really need to say anything. I think it’s best to be okay. Being a sad person, and just allowing them to be sad in your presence, and not shy away from that. The way that we so routinely do because it’s uncomfortable. Because that’s the best thing you can do is to really just sit in sadness with them.

Winter 1:02:45
It’s so comforting. Yeah, when somebody is okay, just being there with you.

Miranda Markham 1:02:48
Yeah. I mean, for parents I don’t know that I have any nuggets of wisdom, necessarily. I still feel like I’m early in this journey myself. But I think the thing that everyone tells you in the beginning is that, even though it doesn’t feel possible, things will get better. I know that if you’re listening to this and you’re at the early stages, you probably don’t believe that. Maybe you do, but you think it’s an impossibly long future, or time ahead.

Miranda Markham 1:03:18
But it is true time does help. It never goes away. I think that maybe the thing is that you can’t get over grief. Or even get through it. I think you just find ways to live alongside it. Maybe that’s a grim prospect. But my hope is that I can think of George and remember him without that searing pain that accompanies so much of this. His life had a major impact. It’s not just on me, but people who know us and know of him. Simply keep his memory alive and that feels important.

Winter 1:04:03
Thank you so much, Miranda. It was so good to hear from you and to hear your words of advice because they were helpful to me too. But thank you so much.

Miranda Markham 1:04:14
You’re very welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai