Dad Matt shares the birth story of his son Owen David at 26 weeks and his subsequent death a few hours after he was born. His wife Lori Ann had a cerclage put in earlier, but her water broke at 21 weeks. Lori Ann stayed on bed rest till 24 weeks and was admitted to the hospital so they could do everything medically possible to keep Owen alive.
She developed an infection and Owen was delivered by emergency C-section at 26 weeks. Owen was unable to breath on his own, and Matt and Lori Ann were able to be with him and hold him before he died.
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Time Stamps:
00:00 Baby’s name
You might appreciate these other episodes:
- Watch/listen Lori Ann’s (Matt’s wife) birth episode of son Owen: Click here
- Watch/listen to Lori Ann’s advice episode after Owen’s death: Click here
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Full Transcription:
Matt’s Story of Son Owen
Matt Liddle 0:01
My child’s name is Owen David.
Matt Liddle 0:10
I remember the moment he opened his eyes. There’s a lot of tubes and a lot of people but the moment he opened his eyes, they were just so precious. No surprise, he had a full head of hair. I thought he was perfect. He was something else.
Winter 0:30
Welcome to Still A Part of Us a place where moms and dads share the story of their child who was stillborn or who died in infancy. I’m Winter.
Lee 0:37
And I’m Lee, we are grateful you joined us today. Please know that this is a story of loss and has triggers
Winter 0:43
Thanks to our loss parents who are willing to be vulnerable and share their children with us.
Lee 0:47
If you’re listening to this podcast, just know that on our YouTube channel, there are pictures and videos that are related to the stories that are being shared.
Winter 0:54
Subscribe and share it with a friend that might need it and tell them to subscribe. Why? Because people need to know that even though our babies are no longer with us, they’re still a part of us.
Lee 1:07
Now Matt, please tell me about yourself.
Matt Liddle 1:10
Okay. So right now every day is a little different for me. I wake up feeling great and other days, and I wake up feeling extremely sad and depressed. On days I’m feeling down, it’s very hard to get out of bed, nevermind accomplishing anything.
Matt Liddle 1:31
Currently, I’m unemployed due to COVID. And to be honest, I’m not ready to go back to work yet, even if COVID wasn’t a thing. It’s hard to really truly accept what happened. I think I’m at that point now where I’m kind of dealing with it. I’m really finally allowing it to go through.
Matt Liddle 1:55
Before Owen passed I was actually living my dream job. I’ve had a pretty complicated childhood. And it’s because of things outside of my control and I have zero consistency in my life. So what better job to do than to find something to fix problems. You have a star consistency and training program.
Matt Liddle 2:23
So I started working in a pot room and a fragrance company is a very big company, but I just needed to get my foot in the door. I’m the kind of guy who thinks it’s not where you are in life, but it’s where you want to be. I just wanted to get my foot in and prove myself faster, multiple promotions, and I ended up working in the office as opposed to working in a union at the plant. I was figuring out ways to cut production time and at the same time saving the company money. So I felt great.
Matt Liddle 3:01
Yeah, so I was the first person in my family to graduate high school. So, me going anywhere for a job was huge. The main goal for my life was, oh, you’re going to be on welfare, just like your parents, and stuff like that. But I met Laurie Ann. She really changed my life. I felt like I could do anything and I wanted to give this girl what she deserves because I didn’t really feel like I deserved anything at all.
Matt Liddle 3:36
Push came to shove, I started doing very well and got a great job. I was actually in the middle of the interview when I found out that she wasn’t doing well. So I went home that night and her water broke.
Matt Liddle 3:57
We were actually sitting in the living room and do you ever see a look on the person you love’s face and you can just tell something’s completely wrong, but they’re kind of stuck in like shock?
Lee 4:12
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 4:12
So I started trying to talk to her and she’s like, my water broke. At that point, we’re only 21 weeks. This is impossible, but for some reason my mind just went. I said go to the bathroom by yourself. In the meantime, I went and I packed the bag and I did all these things. Because we weren’t even to that point where you should have a bag and stuff.
Lee 4:43
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 4:43
So I kinda wasn’t thinking and the car ride down. I was just trying to make her feel better. I don’t know if it’s a man thing, or a husband thing you kind of just always want to make your wife feel better. Kind of put your emotions to the side. We finally got to the hospital. I felt like it took an eternity. But finally we saw a nurse. She did a swab and it came out the color blue.
Matt Liddle 5:14
I remember the color and everything she said,” I’m really sorry to tell you that your water broke.” The only thing I remember, which still haunts me, is just my wife’s face. She just put her hands on her head and said the F bomb. Like, that’s it. That’s all she could say. And she couldn’t move. At that point, I was in complete shock. I had no idea. What do you say? What do you do?
Lee 5:43
Yeah, there’s yeah.
Matt Liddle 5:46
I mean, it was horrible. Then they told us that we actually had to wait until the next day to speak to a doctor. So we’re like–
Lee 5:56
Was this later at night? Where was it?
Matt Liddle 5:58
Yes, it was later at night. It was I believe it was around one o’clock in the morning. Her gynecologist just wasn’t at the hospital. None of her team wasn’t at the hospital or anything. So that night, we’ll go back to talking about things that I don’t remember, because it was so stressful. I don’t remember what we did that night. I don’t know how it made it through that night.
Lee 6:24
Were you at the hospital? Or did you have to go home?
Matt Liddle 6:26
Yes. Okay. Yes, we were at the hospital at this point, because they said we want you to stay here until you could speak to your doctor and kind of come up with a plan.
Matt Liddle 6:39
So that night passed and the doctor came in and told us we had two choices, you have one you terminate right this second. Two, you go home and let your body naturally do what it does. So there’s no infection at the moment, and you’re not doing contractions, so you need to make a choice.
Matt Liddle 7:09
I mean, our world was upside down at that point, because we had done tons of fertility treatments. It took us our third try of IOI just to get pregnant. So we’re like, we’re not going to give up now we’re fighters. We’ve got to do this. Let’s find out the information on how it would go either which way.
Matt Liddle 7:30
So they said you can go home, let nature run its course, unfortunately, we couldn’t do anything for you here at the hospital, you’d have to go back home. We wouldn’t take you until 25 weeks. 24- 25 weeks, something like that. They couldn’t give us a real recommendation, because we were at that point where it’s possible that Owen will be okay. But it’s also possible that he won’t be whatsoever and he’s in a gray area at the age that he was in that they can’t say.
Matt Liddle 8:11
So it’s after talking that night, we decided there’s no way we fought too hard. We were going to fight for this. So we spoke to the doctors and then we decided to go home. The hospital doesn’t consider pregnancy viable until I believe 24 weeks. So we had to go home.
Matt Liddle 8:38
We live about an hour from the hospital and my in-laws live about 30 minutes. So we said we should probably stay at the in-laws, in case something happens. We want to get there as soon as possible.
Matt Liddle 8:52
Just to rewind a little bit, our main concern was that Owen wouldn’t be in any pain whatsoever. If we went forward with this, we do not want any pain. Clearly there is a chance he won’t be okay if he did survive. He wouldn’t be screwed completely.
Matt Liddle 9:16
So we went to the in-laws, we started staying there and trying to I mean, Lori Ann wasn’t possible at the time because she was to the point where she wouldn’t give you a hug because she feels like she would jinx it. For some reason. Her mom would say, oh, let me pet your belly, rub your belly and she’d say, No, I don’t want you to jinx me just like that. Like. So, clearly she was petrified.
Lee 9:49
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 9:49
During all this I was working at my dream job. I started at the pot room and I worked my way up from an office worker to a trainer so it just kept going. At that point, I had to make a decision, be there for my wife, or work. Right? My wife, completely petrified. Neither of us had any idea what could happen if she went into labor at any moment or an infection.
Matt Liddle 10:23
So I decided, let me try to go the family leave route, spend as much time as possible with my wife. We actually ended up making it to the point of the baby being viable in the hospital’s eyes. So we ended up going back to the hospital. That was around. My wife’s gonna kill me if I say this wrong. So if I think we got back to the hospital at 23 weeks, they let us come back. Yes, twenty three weeks, and then we’re able to start the whole process of maybe saving Owen. We started antibiotics, so she wouldn’t get an infection and things like that.
Matt Liddle 11:10
At that point. My job was extremely busy, and they’re giving me ultimatums. Well, for myself, I had to be there. There was nothing, I don’t care if I lost everything outside those hospital walls. Nothing else mattered to me more in the world than my wife and my child.
Lee 11:32
Yeah, yeah.
Matt Liddle 11:33
So, I ended up parting ways with my job. I wouldn’t take that back, I would have made that choice a million times. Because my wife’s my superhero. I don’t know how it is for you, but my wife is one of the strongest people I know. Anyone in fertility treatments, anyone who deals with this kind of stuff. They’re very strong people.
Matt Liddle 11:59
I was literally watching her demolish into nothing. Because of the constant fear of being on bed rest, not being able to do anything. Like, I couldn’t do it. Like I had to be there. I had to sleep there. I wouldn’t even go home. I would sleep there.
Matt Liddle 12:21
The doctors would come in twice a day to do ultrasounds. It was the scariest point of my life. Anytime the ultrasound would happen, my heart would stop. He even thought my wife was completely fine, I was fine. No worries. But every single time my heart would just drop, like no feeling. I can’t even describe the feeling. I feel like the fear is worse than any fear in the entire world. It’s unbelievable.
Matt Liddle 12:57
So push came to shove after all this, I lost my job. I had nothing. I had nothing outside of work besides my wife and my child. We had to figure out a way to get through it. Everyday stuff.
Matt Liddle 13:16
It was horrible because we were on bedrest for three weeks at the hospital before they were able to do anything at all or until Owen came. After this whole situation. I can’t get out of bed. Nevermind work or live daily. I don’t know if that answered that question fully.
Lee 13:46
I just feel for you. That’s all I can say is I feel for you.
Matt Liddle 13:51
Yeah.
Lee 13:53
So you were able to make it to the hospital. After you were about 34 weeks. Did you say?
Matt Liddle 14:01
No. Only 24 weeks.
Lee 14:03
Oh, yeah. 24 sorry, 24 weeks.
Matt Liddle 14:10
Then what happened was 24 weeks. 24 weeks was when we were allowed to go back to the hospital. That’s when they were able to put her on antibiotics and monitor her twice a day.
Lee 14:25
How long were you in the hospital with that?
Matt Liddle 14:27
So we ended up going till she was 26 weeks pregnant. So we were there for four weeks. I slept on a cot next to the bed every day. I wouldn’t leave like I couldn’t leave–
Lee 14:47
Yeah, your life is in that room.
Matt Liddle 14:53
Exactly. Yeah, it actually got to the point where the nurses would leave and I literally taught myself how to read all of the equipment. I mean the heart rate. I knew where it should have been. I studied that thing. It was and it’s unbelievable how clueless you are, when you’re in these situations. I feel like it would help a lot. If you knew. I mean, you if you knew any of this stuff. If your baby’s heart rate is too high. If there’s an infection or, when you hear the nurses say these things, in medical terms, you can get confused.
Matt Liddle 15:39
They’re so quick in and out. You sit there clueless, and your mind just keeps going. So I had to learn how to read the computer. I just wait till they leave and read. That’s the only thing that maybe kind of helped me feel better. To see a normal heart rate.
Matt Liddle 15:59
So I literally slept on a chair next to her for 26 weeks. 26 weeks came and she woke up in the morning, and she wasn’t feeling well whatsoever. I knew something was completely wrong. So we called the doctor in and within a half hour, they said that we’re going to have to go in for an emergency surgery. For a C section, the baby has to come out right now.
Matt Liddle 16:34
I was supposed to be in the room for the C section, but maybe an hour before they gave her medicine for blood clots in her legs. So she was going to bleed a lot. So they decided that, oh, let’s put her out. So they made me suit up. I’m sitting in the room waiting. Then the doctors come back out. They say I need you to come into the room where Lori Ann was ready, she had the gown on and the hat. She was already on the metal table. I spoke to her for two seconds. I said I love you and went into the hallway and waited for the C section.
Matt Liddle 17:15
When I was out there. I was just not a sensitive guy in the past. I’m not a very sociable person. But I just broke down in the middle of the hallway. Nurses came and hugged me and they’re asking me questions. I was just so scared because it’s still so early. 26 weeks is really, really early. It felt like an eternity. But I just sat in the hallway and I cried and I cried.
Matt Liddle 17:53
Then they came and got me. They said your son’s been born and he’s doing fine. He’s doing great. He wants to come back and see him. So I saw him. Going back to one of the first things I noticed about him was his eyes because he opened his eyes and he looked right at me. It was really nice. There’s about four or five NICU doctors there. There’s so much going on. The machines are going. Then you kind of step back and you’re kind of speechless.
Matt Liddle 18:28
You still have no idea if your babies are okay.
Lee 18:34
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 18:34
We got the escort up the elevator and into the NICU. He seemed fine. Everything was looking good. So I decided it’s time to go downstairs and talk to my in-laws because I had called them to tell them to come. To tell them what was happening. I said everything seems to be fine, but I want to go see my wife.
Matt Liddle 19:01
Then the doctor comes downstairs and gets me and he says, “I need you to come upstairs to see Owen and I just need to talk to you about some things.” When I got up there, there was a heart doctor there and their stuff was all over him. His feet are everywhere.
Matt Liddle 19:23
I was so scared. This is one of the biggest things I regret. I was so scared because everything was going on. There’s so many machines and noises that I was just too afraid to touch him. I put my hand in there once and he grabbed my finger. But then after that, I was just terrified to touch him. That’s one of the main things where I feel so guilty because I could have spent more time with him than I did. Because I went to my in-laws and my wife.
Matt Liddle 20:02
I was just too scared. The heart doctor was there and all these machines were going off. People don’t explain to you that stuff because they’re way too busy trying to save your child. What was happening was that his blood pressure kept dropping, and they couldn’t tell why.
Matt Liddle 20:23
So they told me that they were going to try some meds and I should go down and spend some time with my wife. If anything’s really bad, I’m going to have to come and get you in, we’re going to have to go talk to your wife and have your wife come up and see the baby. See, she had the C section. So we knew something was wrong, if they were gonna come and get her to look at the baby.
Matt Liddle 20:45
About two hours go by, and we get a knock on the door. It was the doctor, and he pulled me outside and said I’d like to speak to you about what’s going on. He said, listen, the blood pressure medications not working. it’s really not looking good. You might want to think about getting your wife upstairs.
Matt Liddle 21:07
So we went back to the room together. And when my wife saw the doctor, he said “I really want you to come upstairs to see your child.” I’ll never forget that look on her face. She just looked terrified, like completely terrified.
Matt Liddle 21:31
We went upstairs. They told us that there was really nothing they could do for the baby. The baby’s heart was checked so the only thing we can do at this point is take them off the ventilator and hold them until he goes. So my wife grabbed him. I’ve really regretted not holding him more and stuff. But I was just so scared.
Lee 22:06
You probably felt lost too, scared and lost.
Matt Liddle 22:10
Very lost. Yeah, it was. It’s an experience that you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemies. My wife and I have been through a lot together with a lot of things. She has always been my superhero. Just to see her so broken. On top of watching my child pass away.
Matt Liddle 22:41
I mean, I don’t know how people are always worried about the women, but I don’t know how the men survive it to see the person. I mean, at least in my relationship, the person that means more than anything to me just collapses. It was very hard to take that in.
Lee 23:04
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 23:04
I mean, it was really bad. It’s like, I’m speechless about this whole situation. Like I just shut down. I really don’t know. Because it’s like one of the hardest things that anyone can go through in their entire life.
Matt Liddle 23:21
I know on the paper it says what’s your hobbies and stuff? I used to love going fishing, playing with my dogs. I used to love life and now my hobbies. I mean, my hobby is nothing. I mean, not doing anything whatsoever.
Lee 23:44
You lose yourself.
Matt Liddle 23:45
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. You really do. You really find it. There’s like no words.
Lee 23:56
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 23:57
I’m really not now, did your wife have a C section?
Lee 24:02
No, no she had a vaginal birth with our son, Brannan. He was ready to go. When he passed away he was– with our first daughter with our firstborn we had a C section. But with our son Branna, he was born vaginally.
Matt Liddle 24:21
No doubt that as a husband part there. I don’t know. So for me, when she comes home, she can wash herself in the shower and stuff. I handled all of that. The lactation and stuff. I mean, that destroyed me watching her go through that.
Lee 24:45
It is such a cruel– the body after it’s such a cruel trick that that the body plays on the woman because–
Matt Liddle 24:53
–Horrible
Lee 24:54
Yeah. It really was painful to watch my wife and I’m sure it was painful for you to watch your wife have to go through all that. And nobody tells you, nobody tells you about it. Nobody tells you that the body still thinks that there is a child, even though the brain knows that your son has passed away.
Matt Liddle 25:16
Yeah, it’s cruel. I can’t believe it. I’m helping her shower, and she’s lactating. Up to a week, two weeks later. I mean, it went like eight, nine weeks. It’s cruell. It is horrible. It’s just a reminder that your son’s not there. You’re alone. You went through all of this to be alone right now.
Matt Liddle 25:44
I mean, I know he’s there he’s in–. I’m not a very spiritual guy at all, but I’m trying to learn to say that he’s here with us, or he’s in the sky or in heaven. Just because it’s cruel. Like, it’s, I don’t know, how do you? How do you put that into words? Like, how do you watch your wife go through that alone? I mean, not alone, but how do you? We’re men. We hurt. It really hurt her. It affected us.
Matt Liddle 26:20
I mean, for me, at least it killed me. But I’m not the one to carry that baby. I’m not the one who had to deal with lactation. And all the complications that come from the C .
Lee 26:34
Post recovery and post op recovery.
Matt Liddle 26:37
It’s terrible. Like, did that kill you as well? was that like?
Lee 26:43
Yeah, yeah, it really, it really was one of those. I felt absolutely helpless and worthless as a man, as a husband, and as a friend to my wife, because there was nothing. I can make her as comfortable as possible. I can bring her anything, but there was nothing that I could do to alleviate her pain. And her and yeah, it really was just, it shattered me as a man. It killed me. It killed me as a man.
Matt Liddle 27:19
And do you ever feel like you’ll pull yourself back up from that if I don’t know if I do?
Lee 27:26
No. It’s both a no and a yes answer. Am I able to recover? No. Am I able to learn and change? Yes. Because what happened after the birth of our son? What happened after the death of our son that destroyed everything up to that point. And after that point, I had to rebuild. And I lost my son. My family is different. My relationship with my wife is different from what it was. My relationship with friends is different than what it was, was I able to recover? No, was I able to build new? Yes, I didn’t want to be the same person I was before.
Lee 28:21
I wanted to be a different person. And I’m able to start laying the foundation for the type of person I want to be and the type of person I need to be for my family. And like you said, the most important thing was my wife, and my daughter. For you, it was your wife, your wife was the most important person for you. And I had to change for the future. I couldn’t just be the same person with a different experience. I had to be a whole different person. I had to change, I had to be destroyed, I had to hit bottom and then forget who I was before, and go forward as an end build new.
Lee 29:11
Was able to recover? Yes and no. And I hope you are able to find what helps you. Because you’re a different person now than you were a year ago.
Matt Liddle 29:26
Oh, yeah. For sure.
Lee 29:28
You can’t be the same guy you were ten years ago, five years ago, three years ago.
Matt Liddle 29:36
There’s one who asked me what’s wrong. And I say have you ever felt a pain that you can never imagine in your life that you would actually survive? No, not really. But then don’t ask me that question. Because you wouldn’t really understand my answer.
Lee 29:55
Because I’m feeling it every single moment of my life.
Matt Liddle 29:58
Yeah.
Lee 29:59
Like you are feeling that pain that you never could have imagined every single moment of your life.
Matt Liddle 30:08
Now we’re starting fertility treatments again very soon. Because it took us a very long time to even get pregnant. We got Owen when we had two failed IUI’s, and the third one actually worked.
Matt Liddle 30:29
So, now we’re starting this whole thing all over again. But it’s gonna be in vitro. It’s kinda like, for me and I’m sure it’s like this for a lot of people, you feel like you would never ever survive something like this again, right?
Matt Liddle 30:49
But there’s where I’m wrong, because I don’t know if I’ll have to survive this again. I’m assuming that I am. Because it happened in the past. I can’t I can’t think like that whatsoever. But it’s very hard not to. Because of everything, and to be honest, the scariest time of my life.
Lee 31:14
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 31:15
I mean, I lost my brother, my father, and my son, all within a year span. A year well over two years span. I don’t think I know how to explain it. It’s just like, it’s just being there bringings back everything, really rehashing everything. Even if you had someone to talk to, you’re not really talking to somebody unless they’ve exactly lived through it because they truly don’t understand whatsoever.
Lee 31:59
Even though our situations are similar. They are light years apart. I can never fully understand what you’ve gone through. Nobody can truly understand us.
Matt Liddle 32:10
No.
Lee 32:10
Nobody.
Matt Liddle 32:11
Unless I mean, unless you can understand them. Because you can understand that pain. You, yeah.
Lee 32:20
It’s one of the– there’s the word empathy and sympathy, and I’m not good with which one means which. One means I can imagine what you’re going through. And one means I know what you’ve gone through. And because I’ve gone through what I’ve gone through, I think I can better understand what you’re going through. It’s not that I’ve had this same situation as you. We’ve had similar situations. I cannot try to help you. And you because you’ve gone through your situation. You can understand my situation a little bit better.
Matt Liddle 33:04
Yeah.
Lee 33:05
Is it a perfect understanding? No. But they’re a lot similar.
Matt Liddle 33:12
There’s respect there.
Lee 33:13
Yeah. Respect. Yeah. Respect would be a good way. But yeah, it
Matt Liddle 33:20
I’m not good at talking.
Lee 33:25
Yeah. And it’s such a loaded reminiscence. When you talk about your son Owen. When you talk about his situation like his life and his birth and his death. I’m sure you want to shy away from stuff I’m sure you want to not talk about because I’m in that same situation, especially a year out from the birth of my son, Brannan. And his death. I didn’t want to talk about it. I sort of had to force myself to, it’s no fun no matter what.
Matt Liddle 34:01
No, not at all.
Lee 34:04
Going back to when the doctor came and got you and your wife. And he said that. Owen– and it’s not looking good for Owen. And they took him off of life support. And you got to be with him. How long did he live after being taken off of life support?
Matt Liddle 34:25
Actually I mean, he wasn’t breathing on his own whatsoever. So they gave him phenytoin. So basically, we wouldn’t see him struggling for breath and all that. But now this is hard for me to tell you i
Lee 34:45
If you don’t want to talk about it, don’t.
Matt Liddle 34:47
No, no, no, no, no, I do. So, now again, everybody’s different. Now he’s not living anymore. And the woman and my wife are talking about, Well, why don’t you bathe him and change him. I remember at that moment, like, he’s gone.
Lee 35:18
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 35:21
The worst part that kills me is I look at my wife, and she’s gonna be the most amazing mother in the world. She’s so caring and loving. I remember the first words, the moment she saw him, she looked at me and said, he is perfect. Yes, he was perfect. But she was able to hold him, change him, bathe him and do all these things. I’m looking at her like, wow, I would never, in my wildest dreams, be able to do that.
Matt Liddle 36:11
I’m just watching you do it. I mean, we don’t give women enough strength. I mean, and same thing with men, like, none of my friends really know how I feel. They don’t really care. They have their own problems, they may care, but they don’t really know how much it does affect you or your wife.
Matt Liddle 36:41
I’ve heard things where people said, well, other women? Well, I’ve had a C section, I’ll see what the big deal is. I don’t know why it’s so hard for them. Yeah, but you have a reason to make it through all of that you had your C section, you have your baby there. You’re not waiting for your breast to get rock hard. So your milk will go away, you have no one to give the milk to. It’s unbelievable.
Lee 37:12
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 37:12
If you’re not a part of this club, which I really don’t want anyone in this club ever, you would never truly understand the pain that people really endure and what people have to go through just to have a child. Then you see all these people pushing out all these kids and having all these kids and it’s just like, It’s unbelievable. How is that fair? That’s another big thing I always go back to. It’s not fair.
Lee 37:46
Yeah, it’s not fair. It is, and people will always say, well, life isn’t fair. But it just seems like such an injustice to me. But yeah, and there’s nothing I can do to change that injustice.
Matt Liddle 38:02
No.
Lee 38:02
It is, it is what it is. But it just doesn’t. It doesn’t seem fair.
Matt Liddle 38:08
One thing that I do really need help with is, how did you swallow your fear and everything and try again? Was your mind in a place where you weren’t scared at all that nothing would happen bad, or like I don’t? It’s hard to get going again. To try to have a kid.
Lee 38:35
Yeah. Now, because we were about two years out before we started trying again.
Matt Liddle 38:45
Okay.
Lee 38:46
I was scared. I was anxious. I was everything. I was apprehensive. I was scared. I was fearful. But we had a real, honest discussion, my wife and I, about what we want our family to be? Because we have an older daughter. We have our son Brannan. Are we okay, as a family like that? And yes, we were okay. As a family like that.
Lee 39:24
Then we discussed well, do we feel that we should? Because we are religious. Do we feel that we should add another member to our family? We’re not talking about whether we should add 15 more members to our family. But should we add one more? And there really was some serious internal dialogue.
Lee 39:52
There was serious communication between my wife and I. There were a lot of sleepless nights. Just pondering and praying and hoping that there some sort of enlightenment or some sort of prayer was answered. I felt that as a family we should have another. No, it wasn’t like, Oh, we should not have a child. I think we should try.
Lee 40:19
We gave ourselves– because we had infertility issues as well. We said well let us try and we gave ourselves X amount of months, let’s try this amount of months.We were seeing as fertility specialists and so it was like if it doesn’t happen within this time, we’re okay. We’re okay if we don’t have a child. But if it happens, we’re okay if we do have a child, and there’s all sorts of fear.
Lee 40:57
You know Matt you’re going to feel it, you’re going to feel all sorts of fear and happiness, you’re going to feel hope. You’re going to fear you’re going to feel like I said, you’re going to feel everything. You’re going to feel good, you’re going to feel bad, you’re going to feel happy, you’re going to feel sad, joy and hate and rage and anger. But you’re going to also feel that good side as well. You’re going to see a child growing, you will feel everything good and bad.
Matt Liddle 41:33
Now that old pregnancy where you completely freaked out, it was gonna happen again. Or was there ever a point where you kind of calmed down and were like okay, I think we’re okay.
Lee 41:46
Nope, I was a mess the whole pregnancy. So, yeah, it really was just a belief that my wife, my wife’s body can do what it needs to do. My wife tried her best to be healthy. We tried our best to eat healthy and exercise. We’re not Olympic athletes by any means. We’re not even amateur athletes by any means.
Matt Liddle 42:17
But you’re trying.
Lee 42:19
Yeah well. Sometimes some days, some days we’re trying. But we were like we will do the best we can to give my wife’s body the best nutrition. I made sure she went to bed. I made sure that she–
Lee 42:41
You know what I have a problem with when she says it’s because of my body. This happened. I get angry.
Lee 42:50
Yeah. It’s nothing that can really be blamed. It’s not her fault. It’s not your fault. It’s not. It just happened. It sucks. It sucks. It’s unfair. It’s just the worst. But it’s hard to stop thinking like that. Because we naturally want to say we naturally want to have something that we can point to as being the problem. When there’s not a problem, it’s easy to internalize it and say it was my fault.
Matt Liddle 43:28
Yeah.
Lee 43:29
But in all reality, it was nobody’s fault. It just, it just happened. It just happened. And it sucks. It’s the worst thing to ever happen. But it just happens. That’s all we could really say it sucks. It’s just the worst.
Matt Liddle 43:51
You kind of feel robbed he was in our arms, he was there.We were right there.
Lee 44:00
You were approaching the finish line.
Matt Liddle 44:04
So, you don’t know what to be. Or you are all of the things your emotions are angry, sad, like, unreal. Yeah.
Lee 44:18
I love how you put it. You don’t know what to be, but you feel all the emotions. Like you don’t know if you should be angry or mad or sad. I felt guilty for a long time laughing and enjoying myself. Because I shouldn’t feel that my child is dead. I shouldn’t be. I shouldn’t be laughing. I shouldn’t enjoy anything but you do feel all the emotions and there’s a time and place there’s a time to feel joy. There is a time to feel happiness. And there is a time also to feel anger and there’s a time to also feel sadness. So–
Matt Liddle 44:59
–It’s kind of you’re a prisoner of your own mind. Because you can go out saying what, I’m gonna be a good, it’s gonna be a good day. But then you go down to the store and you walk past the baby section and you’re not having a good day anymore.
Lee 45:15
It turns it upside down.
Matt Liddle 45:18
Then there’s nothing you can do. I mean, you can’t avoid it. How do you deal with it? What is he dealing with? You can’t really deal with it. I don’t know. It’s just like, I feel like that will never go away. Never always feel like a prisoner of my own mind. Because I could be in the happiest mood. I could be thinking this, but if I see something, it’s over.
Lee 45:46
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 45:47
It goes right to it. Are you able to, like get back and function to like your normal life duties right away?
Lee 45:55
No, no, not not right away. It does take time. There’s that adage that time heals all wounds. But it leaves scars. Time does heal wounds, but they leave scars.
Matt Liddle 46:08
That’s very true. And they’ll always be there.
Lee 46:10
Yeah, like I’ve, I’ve broken many bones in my body. And I still have issues with those broken bones. Did they heal fully? Did they? No, some of them didn’t heal fully, but I’m functioning. Am I whole? No, I am not whole, I am not whole after this, this tragedy. But I am able to continue on.
Lee 46:38
It took a long time for me to be able to continue on. Because there were times that I just wanted to stay there and just stay in that pain and in that sadness, and in that grief. But there is just like a bone mending after being broken. After a time it will be able to support what you need to do with it.
Lee 47:03
So it was with me and my emotions and me with my ability to exist. I was able to finally say I can. I can exist. It takes time. That’s all I can say. And it hurts. It hurts. It’s lonesome–
Matt Liddle 47:25
The man never gets the support.
Lee 47:28
No.
Matt Liddle 47:29
Like a woman does.
Lee 47:30
No. Yep. Yep. Everybody will ask you how it is? How’s your wife doing? Yeah. How’s Lori Ann? How’s Lori Ann doing? In all reality it’s how both of you are doing. When somebody asks how your wife’s doing, how is she holding up?
Matt Liddle 47:47
No one, no one cares about the husband. The father.
Lee 47:51
Yeah, society doesn’t realize that we lost as well.
Matt Liddle 47:56
That’s right. I lost my son. I lost my son, but it was completely different with our first miscarriage. I didn’t hear the heartbeat. My wife did. But I didn’t. You know that. And I don’t have any problems with that. But I had that boy in my arms. I’ve never had a father in my life. Bad, bad dude.
Matt Liddle 48:24
I was just so excited to just do everything I missed as a child. Getting older, I just want to be able to have a relationship with a child. I watched a movie the other night, and they’re talking about living and dying and faith. The man says, I only want to live at least another 30 years ago. ” The guy asked him, “What the heck are you going to do in those 30 years?” and he says, I just want to see my children grow up. That’s all I want in my entire life. I just want to see them grow up.
Matt Liddle 49:09
We’ll never get that chance. It’s really sad. I mean, I hope I do get the chance to have my own children. I’m very blessed that I have someone who’s extremely strong and brave, just even doing the show.
Matt Liddle 49:28
In a way. I don’t know if this is part of the advice, but I’ve been avoiding these feelings. I haven’t dealt with anything. I mean, I haven’t slept in four days because of this podcast. Because the reality of it is I’ve been pushing it all to the side. So I can help everybody else. But now when I get home, I’m writing 15 pages on what happened. It changes everything. Even having these pages, I couldn’t read them, right? And it’s unbelievable.
Lee 50:10
I hope you were able to find something that can help you. I was in that situation, too, I did not want to address many things that were going on with me. Like you said, I push them, I push them back, I push them to the side. They kept piling up. When I was able to actually address them, everything just crashed down. Then I was able to work through them. I hope you were able to find something that you can do to help you.
Matt Liddle 50:44
It helps you remember a lot that you really don’t remember. You kind of feel when you’re in the hospital for a couple weeks. Thinking back at the situation, I felt really alone. But then kind of being forced into the situation to look back and think about everything. I realized that I really wasn’t alone. Your mind kind of plays tricks on you too, as well.
Lee 51:15
It’s very selective. Your mind is very selective. Yeah.
Matt Liddle 51:19
Exactly. I feel like my wife said, this podcast helps a lot and helps people and I’m like sitting here writing. How and possible, can this help somebody? I’m the kind of person that tells you your story. I’m gonna take that home tonight, like tonight, I’m gonna feel your story because I’m that type of person.
Matt Liddle 51:46
Besides your story, me carrying anything and everything out of my head kind of made me feel a little better. It made me feel like, okay, somebody is actually listening. That’s the same shoes as I am. They kind of understand my situation. There is a big difference between females and males, when it comes to situations like this, especially emotions.
Matt Liddle 52:18
You can’t really go to your best friend crying as a man, right? I mean.
Lee 52:23
Yeah.
Matt Liddle 52:24
This is one of those situations where you can’t do it alone. But you can’t do that with your wife, at least in my situation, because my wife is so far more advanced than I am in here. She got mad at me one day, because her home screen is Owen. And I’m like, she wanted to show me pictures. I said, I can’t look at that right now. Like, I’m sorry. To her, it was like, You can’t look at your own child? What the heck is your problem?
Matt Liddle 52:54
But it’s not that I can’t look at my own child, it’s just that I haven’t dealt with the whole situation in general. It’s like avoiding it. I can’t, because I’m too afraid to deal with it. Because I don’t want to feel that pain even more right now. It’s like, you just don’t want to feel pain whatsoever.
Matt Liddle 53:18
Then you do learn by talking and stuff like that. The only reason she’s doing better is because she is talking and she is remembering every day. But it’s hard to realize that. Even just to find someone to talk to. I’ve tried to find people to talk to, but everyone’s busy, everyone’s got their own stuff and COVID.
Matt Liddle 53:43
When we got discharged from the hospital, COVID the day we left, the hospital stopped taking visitors. So, we’re grieving our child, but then we came out and now we’re grieving our life. Because now we’re like, what happened in the last month, like, where are we? Everything changed.
Matt Liddle 54:08
Then we tried to start looking for support groups and they weren’t around because you can’t meet in person. Then time goes by and you don’t even want to do that anymore. I feel like this is where people make a lot of mistakes if they don’t swallow their pride, put everything to the side and really let it out. Talk let’s figure out how to feel better and how to remember your son but not feel so terrible.
Lee 54:47
Making yourself vulnerable is such a hard thing to do. That’s what this is. What we are doing as when we are reflecting on our sons when we are reflecting upon the situation. We are completely vulnerable. Because we are on the cusp of breaking down we are on the cusp of crying, and just breaking down and becoming vulnerable to our friends to our family to, to random strangers is, it’s hard to do.
Lee 55:23
It wasn’t until I started seeing a professional therapist, and I felt I could break down in front of them. They weren’t going to be there to judge me. They weren’t there either. Yeah, I was paying. I was paying the therapist to listen to me. But I honestly felt that, that my therapist, that she was there, and she genuinely felt concern for me.
Matt Liddle 55:51
Were you that kind of guy that would never do something like that before?
Lee 55:54
Yeah, yeah, it took a long time for me to go actually, to a therapist. There’s, I don’t know, I’m sure New York has grief support. Like, in Utah, there are two grief support groups, shared by parents. Then like, Oh, I can’t remember exactly what their names are. But they’re now starting to meet online, because we still can’t meet in person. But they have just a monthly meeting where parents who have suffered loss can come together.
Lee 55:57
Winter and I started going to that. There were a lot of mothers there. But there were a couple fathers there too. It was good to see. I’m a dad, he’s a dad, we’ve both lost. We don’t necessarily have to talk to each other. But it’s good to be in the same room. It’s good to be in the same video chat. Yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard because yeah, you do feel alone, you do feel abandoned. You do feel forgotten. Nobody does ask you. Nobody. Nobody does ask the Father. They always inquire about the mother.
Matt Liddle 57:13
Exactly. Right.
Lee 57:14
But what’s,–
Matt Liddle 57:16
You’ll never get a random text message. Maybe we saw your own mom in general, your own mother. Oh, hey, how are you? Okay, today with Owen ? In the meantime, the wife’s got about 45 contacts that are like, Hey, are you okay?
Lee 57:35
Yeah. And it really is. My wife is part of a loss moms group that gets together once a month for dinner. Before COVID they were really religious about getting together for dinner. They would text each other. During COVID, all of a sudden, instead of texting each other three times a day, they’re texting each other 50 times a day. I haven’t received probably one more than 10 texts ever. Yeah, it’s hard for us because we’ve lost too. We’ve lost too.
Matt Liddle 58:16
That is so true. When I met my wife, I was in a time where I felt so alone to begin with I had nothing and nobody. You meet this woman who literally just transforms your life and makes you see life in a completely different way. It’s absolutely amazing how one person can completely, completely change your life. One person, and I’m kind of hoping that this podcast is that one person. That helps me like, my ego stuff’s got to go away. I got to go and get help. I need to talk to somebody because it’s just, you can’t do it alone.
Lee 59:13
No, you can’t.
Matt Liddle 59:14
And you can talk to your wife. But
Lee 59:17
But your wife, you’re together.
Matt Liddle 59:20
Yeah.
Lee 59:22
It’s sort of one of those you, you and your wife are one entity. So it’s not really you’re talking to other people you’re talking to–You’re talking to each other,
Matt Liddle 59:34
Yourself.
Lee 59:35
Yeah, basically yourself.
Matt Liddle 59:36
Yeah, definitely.
Lee 59:40
Of course, and I’m not trying to downplay the help your wife gives to you or the help my wife gives to me. But getting an outsider to help you is different too. So.
Matt Liddle 59:54
Yeah, because even different grieving processes. She may be headed towards me and I say something else. It really bothered me, I’m not ready for it. And she’s like, what the heck, and then you kind of feel like shoot. She’s so ahead of me and I’m like, dang. It started to get you going so like, you’re you do need that outside person that isn’t dealing with the same exact situation with you, with your baby. And they’re further along with the grief and grieving process, because she may not.
Matt Liddle 1:00:34
You may get into a fight, because she may not understand the way you’re feeling. She may say, You’re not crying right now, you don’t care. But no, that’s not right. It’s just you’re grieving, here me, I saw this. But now I’m thinking about the Dallas Cowboys. I’m thinking about my football game, because I’m too afraid to think about what you’re thinking about. It’s not that I don’t care, but we’re just two completely different stages.
Matt Liddle 1:01:03
I feel like it’s so important to talk with your partner to talk about different grieving stages, because I may be really pissed. I may be really angry when someone says something about Owen or something. And she may not be and she may not understand because I’m in a different grieving spot. Yeah. And if you have that outside person, they’re not grieving for you. So you’re gonna get what you need to hear. Then my wife has emotions, and she feels hurt when I say things because she thinks maybe I’ll think you don’t care about your child, because you’re not crying. Well, no, I care so much that I can’t even dream about thinking about it, because I’m going to cry.
Lee 1:01:54
The grieving process and how different people grieve it’s so different. Going back to, right after the birth, and when we were discharged from the hospital, I was a man on a mission on how to, I had to find a burial plot. I was up in the morning, I was doing everything I could to plan the funeral. Once that funeral was done, I was lost again. Then it, yeah, there was no purpose. But when I have a purpose, I’m a man on a mission. My wife when she has a purpose, she’s and we’re just in two completely different spots, because she was able to do this. I was able to do this. And it really is like, people mourn differently. People mourn at different rates. People feel things differently. People process those feelings differently. It’s hard to say, well, I’m here, you should be here with me. Because we’re not the same.
Matt Liddle 1:03:05
No, no, and we could have been to the same thing at the same exact time. And we still can be in different places. Everybody’s body is different. I mean, my wife actually gets physically sick, physically, when she gets overwhelmed with stuff with Owen. I mean, everybody is so different.
Matt Liddle 1:03:31
I feel like that’s why it’s so hard to talk to people about this situation. Because everyone’s all over the place only like you, you can talk about these things, right? You’re on the podcast, you’re moving forward. Me? I’m starting to read a piece of paper and I like passed out. I gotta call the cops. Cause it’s like the fear stills you is unbelievable. I’ve seen a lot of bad things in my life. I’ve been in a lot of bad places growing up. I’ve had a lot of bad things happen. And nothing compares.
Lee 1:04:16
No.
Matt Liddle 1:04:17
Nothing. Nothing. I had a gun shot at me and my friend at the same exact time we kind of did the same thing. I mean, it was a little different. Something like this was the pain that is so embedded in your heart. It’s like, I don’t know. The sad part is if you’re not a part about this club. You really have no idea about it. You don’t really know what these people go through. Yeah, they lost their son.
Matt Liddle 1:04:50
I had someone say9 to me, just recently it’s been a year since you lost your child and you’re going on this podcast Why? Are you ever going to start moving on? And I was taken back, like, moving on? What do you mean? When are you going to start preparing for your future? Well, listen, I’m trying to prepare for my future. This step is a step forward for me.
Matt Liddle 1:05:23
I’m sitting here with you right now talking to you about something that, honestly, I couldn’t say two sentences without breaking down. To me that’s positive. That’s gaining. I’m gaining. I’m getting better. Yeah and people somehow still want to judge you where you’re at. That has never been in the situation itself, and they can’t truly understand. It makes it even harder.
Matt Liddle 1:05:51
Because as a man, you feel even more alone. You’re like, wow, stop being a punk. It was a year ago. I understand that, but I can’t help it. I can’t help that I had the worst childhood of my life. I had a really bad childhood.All I’ve ever dreamed of was doing homework with my child throwing a ball with my child. So, when I found out I was having a boy, I was just like, Whoa! This is the best. I get to do everything that I missed out, like GI Joes. I didn’t do any of that stuff. The only time I’m gonna be a kid again. I’m all Yeah! There’s so many different emotions.
Lee 1:06:39
Yeah. Losing a child is not like having a bike stolen. Yeah, you could easily get over a bike being stolen, you could easily get over having your car break down. You can move on from those things. Losing a child is losing dreams. It’s losing. Like you were saying that you thought of being able to play with your child to help your child. You’re losing all that you’re losing a future.
Matt Liddle 1:07:08
That is right. Yeah, you plan for your future. That’s part of your plan. You’re gonna have a child. So you’re looking at your future like it’s ruined.
Lee 1:07:17
Yeah, you’re not, you’re not losing your whole future. You’re not losing the future. You’re losing a future.
Matt Liddle 1:07:25
Yeah, it is. I wish more people would understand that we have feelings too. We’ve had people ask us like, Oh, I’m gonna put it in a– and it was on Owen’s birthday. We got a message. Oh, I’m gonna put a pregnancy announcement out. Is that okay? Why are you asking me? That’s your life’s dreams and your dreams. My dreams are completely different.
Matt Liddle 1:08:01
People treat you differently. They don’t know how to act around you. Even family get quieter. They don’t know what to say to you. Some people think they can relate to you by saying Oh, one of my friends just lost their child or all these things. Well to me what bothers me is why can’t we go back to the way things were before.
Matt Liddle 1:08:32
The thing will never go back to before, but with all input the relationships with I had my say. Let’s say my mother and father in law are some of my old best friends. It seems like it never went back to normal. They look at you like you’re a damaged goods and they kind of are afraid to talk to I guess, I don’t know.
Lee 1:08:56
It really is one of those people don’t know how to react and interact with you. Not with you, you but with us, people who have lost. Because they don’t know, is this a topic we could talk about? Is it a topic that’s going to cause you stress? Like you said, sometimes you just want to have a normal conversation. But sometimes people don’t know how to do that. I often just say these friends were friends that I had good friendships with. Now that has changed. I have to realize I am a different person and they are a different person. It’s sometimes hard to see those things disappear. Those friendships disappear.
Matt Liddle 1:09:47
I’m sorry. Still the same person just a little damaged.
Lee 1:09:52
I wouldn’t say damaged. You’re changing. Sure you are training, you’re not damaged.
Matt Liddle 1:09:59
True.
Lee 1:10:00
You have gone through something so traumatic, you have gone through something that has shaken you and destroyed you. You are trying to rebuild who you are, and understand who you are.
Matt Liddle 1:10:14
But how can you do that when your whole past? Everyone around you doesn’t treat you like who you are?
Lee 1:10:22
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you just have to just say, this is what I want to be. And this is how I need to be. And this is how I will be. Sometimes it’s hard to make your body do what your mind tells you to do. And sometimes it’s hard to tell your mind what your body needs you to do. So sort of one of those circular logics, we could talk for, who knows how many more hours? It’s probably getting late back on the east coast. I don’t want to hold you hostage for the rest of your life.
Matt Liddle 1:11:02
No, I mean, I just want to appreciate you guys for being so strong and brave, because that’s another thing with my wife. That shows me each time she talks about Owen or anything that has to do with child loss and stuff. To me that is teaching me something. I’m looking at her and saying, Wow, she’s strong. She is so brave, but she’s got no clue that she’s strong and brave. You could tell her all the time.
Matt Liddle 1:11:34
I just want to thank you, because it takes a lot of courage, acceptance. It’s a lot. I don’t know how long exactly how you’ve been doing this before. But I’m sure it’s a lot coming on all the time and speaking about your story and talking about it. I commend you guys. And if it wasn’t for people, like you, people like me wouldn’t get any better. You’re setting the examples of where I can learn where I could be okay. I’m not alone. I just need to meet the right people and talk to the right people. Maybe I’m not this screwed up for the rest of my life. It gives me a kind of hope that I’ll be okay. So, thank you for real man. I mean it.
Lee 1:12:31
Matt, this is the reason why we set this podcast up so that we can reach out and together talk about our children. And through that talking, we can heal a little bit, we will be able to help those around us who are also struggling. Right now, you might not feel that you can help anybody who has also suffered, but in the future, you will be able to. You will be able to say hey, this has happened to me. This is what I have done. I hope my experiences helped a little bit.
Matt Liddle 1:13:05
Yeah, like I said, you guys are amazing.
Lee 1:13:11
Well, Matt, thank you so much for talking with me. Thank you.
Matt Liddle 1:13:16
Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai