Still a Part of Us

advice

Her Baby Died–5 Things NOT to Say + Bonus Tip

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In Honor of Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month, we are sharing some of the worst things people have said to us and other moms and dads that have lost a baby either by stillbirth or infant death.

If you’re a loss mom/loss dad, what are some of the things you’ve heard that you would recommend people NOT say?

Check out Winter’s interview with Nicole at Mamas and Misses about Pregnancy After Loss (PAL): Here
Shout-out to Ashlee of Presentlee for words of wisdom and beautiful, encouraging jewelry. See their mission and shop here: @presentlee

Watch here (YouTube):

Listen here (podcast):

Time Stamps:

00:00 What?!?
01:00 Disclaimer
01:16 Why would you say that?!?
02:20 Are you kidding me?!?
03:36 Yikes!
04:03 I can’t believe you just said that!
04:53 Oh c’mon!
06:29 BONUS!
08:06 Last advice

You might appreciate these other episodes:

  • Watch/listen to Waves of Grief | Bereaved Mother’s Day episode: Click here
  • Watch/listen to Mom Winter (and co-host of Still A Part of Us) birth episode of son Brannan: Click here

Wanna help?

  • DONATE! Consider giving a one-time or recurring donation to help with production and hosting costs: Go here for more information.
  • SUBSCRIBE! Head over here to subscribe to our YouTube channel and our podcasts.
  • SHARE! Spread the word to a loss mom or dad, or those who may be supporting a bereaved parent. Send them a link to this post. Pin one of our graphics on Pinterest.

After Stillbirth: Angelica, Grieving Mom Shares How She’s Dealt With The Loss of Her Son

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Mom Angelica sits down with Winter in this interview to talk about the trauma of finding out her son would be stillborn and giving birth to him via Caesarean section, how she transitioned back to work as a NICU nurse, and what’s she’s done to cope after Ezra’s death. She also shares things that you should and shouldn’t say to a loss mom or dad.

Watch here (YouTube):

Listen here (podcast):


Time Stamps:

00:00 Welcome
02:09 After Ezra’s birth (stillborn) and what helped
07:57 Work
15:02 Physical reminders of Ezra
24:54 How has Nick (husband) handled everything
36:27 What not to say and what to say

You might appreciate these other episodes:

  • Watch/listen to Angelica’s birth episode of son Ezra: Click here
  • Watch/listen to Tiffany‘s birth episode of daughter Khyana’s: Click here

Wanna help?

  • DONATE! Consider giving a one-time or recurring donation to help with production and hosting costs: Go here for more information.
  • SUBSCRIBE! Head over here to subscribe to our YouTube channel and our podcasts.
  • SHARE! Spread the word to a loss mom or dad, or those who may be supporting a bereaved parent. Send them a link to this post. Pin one of our graphics on Pinterest.
Ezra, born still

Full Transcription:

Winter 0:00
Welcome, everybody to Still A Part of Us.

Winter 0:02
I am Winter. I’m one of the hosts of this show. We’re going to be talking with Angelica a little bit about her experience with the stillbirth of her son Ezra. A couple of things before we get started, just housekeeping things, this conversation is full of triggers. So if you are not in a good place, please do not listen, do not watch, we want to be as helpful as possible. And if you’re not in a good place, please just be aware that we will be talking about a lot of different things that could be hard to listen to. So please just be aware of that. If you are part of our community, if you are a lost mom, lost dad, hit the subscribe button. We are here to help build community. So please join us and help each other out.

Winter 0:43
Once again, Angelica, thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us about Ezra. If you did not get a chance to hear her birth story, you will cry. Because I did. Please check that birth story out. Angelica, thank you once again for coming on today. And discussing some things that have helped you and have not helped you. So welcome. Once again.

Angelica 1:06
Thank you so much and thank you for again wanting to hear my sons story.

Winter 1:10
Oh, yeah.

Angelica 1:11
It is so wonderful to be able to tell it.

Winter 1:12
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Tell us again, just so that everybody is kind of brought up to speed. How long ago was Ezra born?

Angelica 1:21
He was born on June 1st of 2020.

Winter 1:25
So at the time of this recording, it’s been just about 10 months or so. So still very new still very raw. I’m going to just be like– that first birthday coming up is that can be that’s going to be a milestone that can be a little tricky. We’ll talk a little bit about that as well.

Winter 1:45
Also, just a little bit of context, Ezra was stillborn at 33 weeks, so that everybody knows where we’re coming from. So, Angelica, tell me how it’s been these last 10 months for you. How’s your grief been? How have you approached it, I guess? And how have you dealt with it?

Angelica 2:09
To start with it was really, really rough and dark. It just was. Everything just got so dark. This first couple of weeks, I think I was actually so despondent that my husband was concerned that I would do something drastic. That’s what he told me. I’ve done talk therapy before, but he looked at me, he said, “If you’re willing to do it, just for a week, you know, I really think you should.” So I did start to go to counseling in the first two to three weeks, following Ezra’s death. That did help quite a bit. I went about twice a week for several months, and then eventually went down to once and for several months. Now it’s kind of been titrated to about once a month for the past two months or so.

Winter 3:10
It sounds like it has been somewhat helpful.

Angelica 3:14
Yes, yeah. I found that it was really helpful for me to talk about him. To talk about what happened. I just didn’t realize how much it would be helpful to talk about him. Because there are so many other instances where I’ve met parents who just don’t want to talk about what happens at all. If you want to sweep it under the rug for the moment, and just kind of move forward. I thought to myself, am I doing this wrong? Because I feel like I want to talk about him more? Or am I productivities support groups, that kind of thing.

Angelica 3:58
I didn’t actually start going to support groups until about two months after and it started with local support groups.

Winter 4:04
Yeah.

Angelica 4:06
That I found another organization. It’s called the Star Legacy Foundation.

Winter 4:10
Oh, yes.

Angelica 4:12
Which I imagine somebody has to have mentioned.

Winter 4:14
Yeah.

Angelica 4:15
Once before here, but they had a physician who was doing a seminar on umbilical cords. Because we don’t really know what happened to Ezra I thought, well, maybe he’s got information that will give me an a-ha moment.

Winter 4:33
I see.

Angelica 4:33
So I can talk to my doctor about it and see if that could have been part of what happened. Then from there, found the support groups on there.

Winter 4:43
Great. It makes a huge difference when you are sitting with somebody that has had a very similar experience to you. Not having to kind of explain all those feelings that you have and if they’ve never experienced before, because you mentioned that before in your birth episode. Your background is as a NICU nurse, a neonatal intensive care unit nurse. So you’ve always had that idea that there’s a possibility, right? You’ve seen people have lost before. But you said something that struck a chord with me where you said, “I had no idea, even though I understood it, until you actually have felt the loss yourself.” It’s totally different. Right?

Angelica 5:25
It really is. Because in a report, when we’re talking about our patients, we talk about their moms, we talk about the birth history, and that includes mom’s birth history as well. So if parents have had a previous loss, then we generally know about those. Anytime that you hear about somebody who has had previous losses, it just– before losing Ezra, would just make my heart sink. But now it makes me weak at the knees, just thinking about what that person is going through. So yeah. What other people will have the ability to imagine doesn’t even touch with the actual experience, regardless of how much they worked on it, how much they tried to understand it. I’m grateful for that. I am so grateful. But there are people out there who try– who work with those who have lost, but who have never experienced that loss themselves.

Winter 6:31
Yeah.

Angelica 6:32
I think that’s– I’m grateful that they haven’t been through that themselves.

Angelica 6:37
Yeah, but are willing. Oh, yeah, I was gonna say shout out to my therapist, same thing with her. She’s never experienced that kind of loss, but she has helped us so much. So yes, I completely agree with you. Then there are some people that are still doing wonderful things, despite not having had that loss. Thankfully not having that loss. So you have gone to see a therapist. Also some of these grief groups that are– you can also you can find them kind of online, you can meet electronically, I guess, which is so so nice. Especially at this time when meetings, like in person meetings, are not happening. I believe my hospital– I don’t think has any of those in person meetings. It’s all zoom right now. Anyway, so. So yeah.

Angelica 7:26
That’s us too. I think that the pandemic has made this technology more accessible.

Winter 7:34
Yeah.

Angelica 7:34
And, and so I think, as awful as things have been over the last year for so many different reasons. You know, I think that aspect of things has been helpful.

Winter 7:48
Yes.

Angelica 7:49
It’s been really helpful to have the access to those people. electronically, virtually.

Winter 7:55
Yeah, virtually. Yes, it is. Yeah, it is a blessing. That’s a little silver lining of the pandemic, right. And when you obviously you had Ezra, and he was, this was a big surprise. Obviously, not expected you were 33 weeks. Were you allowed to take some time off to after his birth?

Angelica 8:18
Yes, yes. I originally asked them just to allow me to take whatever I was allowed for maternity leave. Originally, I was approved for nine weeks off. As I was getting to like the seven, eight week mark, I started to panic about thinking about going back to work.

Winter 8:38
Yeah.

Angelica 8:38
Because I just didn’t know if like, I didn’t even know if I could physically enter the hospital, let alone walk those same halls.

Angelica 8:47
Yes.

Angelica 8:48
You know, go back into the unit where I was just hours before I was admitted. And found out that he was gone. So I just didn’t know. So I petitioned for three more, which I had. It was within the policy to allow me to have that extra time.

Winter 9:11
Right.

Angelica 9:11
But they were very gracious. So I was able to take 12 weeks off. And I needed every last day.

Winter 9:18
Yeah. Great. That’s great. And transitioning back to work. So you did you go back to the NICU?

Angelica 9:26
Yeah I did.

Winter 9:28
How did that happen?

Angelica 9:29
It has been a whirlwind. I started off the first week or so. The first week or so I was with a fellow employee, one of my peers. Almost like I was being oriented back onto the floor. Because I knew that if something happened, I needed somebody who’s going to be able to watch my assignment. Right then and there. I wasn’t going to be able to wait for somebody who could come and take over for me in 20 minutes when they were done with their assignment elsewhere. I just needed someone who could take over the reins. I knew that the kids were safe, because my biggest concern was that I wasn’t going to be a safe nurse that I was going to be distracted. It started out in small increments. So I think I started out with four hour increments, went to eight and then eventually worked my way back up to full 12.

Winter 10:39
Right, right. I think that’s and was that something that kind of worked out with your nurse manager too? To create something that kind of schedule so that you could feel like you were easing back into things?

Angelica 10:54
Yeah, I did talk with my nurse manager. They kind of worked out what types of assignments I should be taking as well as to make sure that they weren’t giving me little boys named Ezra, or 33 weekers. You know, just to kind of be sensitive about the details surrounding Ezra’s birth. And helping me to come back just because– don’t ask me why they want me back. Because I feel pretty worthless as a NICU nurse somedays. But they’ve been very kind too. They’ve been trying to help me to adjust back.

Winter 11:44
Yeah, praises to you– seriously, they have just to pay attention to like you said the details. The fact that they’re like if this patient is a like a 33 weeker– that this baby is a 33 weeker. That’s those little things that can be triggering. The fact that they are paying attention is cool, like that is very sensitive and cool of them to do that. Or to be aware of that.

Angelica 12:08
Yeah they are amazing.

Winter 12:09
Yeah.

Angelica 12:10
My co-workers have been amazing. And actually, so because he was born early, because we delivered early, I didn’t have those extra weeks PTO. So I think I was able to cover seven weeks of PTO on my own. All the rest of it was PTO donation.

Winter 12:32
Oh.

Angelica 12:32
From my co-workers.

Winter 12:34
That is awesome. That is so kind.

Angelica 12:38
They fed and clothed my family and kept the lights on for five weeks. It’s hard to know how to say thank you to them.

Winter 12:50
Yeah. Yeah. That’s really great. I think that’s– good job coworkers!

Angelica 12:59
They are just amazing.

Angelica 13:01
Yeah, yeah. Now your backup to like, full time shifts. And how is it? How’s that been? Are you doing? Are you? How’s that? Are you? Are you doing? Okay? Like, I just I can’t imagine honestly, working on the NICU so. I just like oh, oh, yeah.

Angelica 13:16
I’m actually not working full time I’m point six.

Winter 13:19
Oh, okay.

Angelica 13:20
I’m working two days a week.

Winter 13:21
Okay.

Angelica 13:22
That was always the plan.

Winter 13:23
Oh.

Angelica 13:24
That was always the plan for us, for me to go to point six after Ezra was born because our intent was for me to be able to spend more time with the kids. Then to kind of minimize the amount of childcare.

Winter 13:35
Yes, Yes, for sure.

Angelica 13:36
But after Ezra passed I just thought to myself, I don’t know that I can force myself to be on the floor any longer than that. You know what I mean?

Winter 13:43
Yeah.

Angelica 13:44
Just because, as you probably know it, you spend all of your days off, just accruing as much energy as you can so that you can be functional and have your head on straight. I feel like those two days at work every week, they take every ounce of energy that I have collected over, you know, a couple of days at a time.

Winter 14:14
Yeah. That is a great way of putting it. You do need to store it up. To yeah, to be on task, I guess. Yeah.

Angelica 14:25
Yes and for me, I just, I don’t want to be a liability.

Winter 14:34
Right. Yes.

Angelica 14:36
After losing my own child, I couldn’t live with myself knowing that I had contributed to the loss of somebody else’s child. So when I’m at work I try to be–

Winter 14:48
You’re on, Yeah.

Angelica 14:50
Focused as I possibly can be.

Winter 14:52
Yes.

Angelica 14:53
And as attentive to detail as my brain will allow.

Winter 14:57
Yeah.

Angelica 14:57
So far, they haven’t asked me to leave. I think that’s a good sign.

Winter 15:02
Yeah I think that it’s a good sign. Well, yeah. Angelica tell me what you have done in order to kind of remember Ezra. I know you mentioned in your birth story that they gave you a weighted teddy bear. I think some people don’t know about these kind of weighted teddy bears or weighted stuffed animals where it’s the same weight as your child. Oh, you’re going to go grab it yay!

Angelica 15:36
So I have two.

Winter 15:39
Oh look at that!

Angelica 15:40
So this is the teddy bear that they gave us in the hospital.

Winter 15:44
Uh huh. Oh, he’s really cute.

Angelica 15:46
He actually weighs less than Ezra, but it’s strange when you’re cradling them in your arms. They just feel so small.

Winter 15:56
Yeah.

Angelica 15:57
And so weightless. So when I was holding him, I thought to myself that you know that they had to be around the same weight, but they aren’t. At least not with the Molly Bear that we got later on. I think this is a brand that’s called the comfort cub.

Winter 16:17
Cute.

Angelica 16:21
This is the Molly Bear that we made.

Winter 16:25
It’s got his name and everything. That’s so cute.

Angelica 16:29
It sas his metrics on the foot.

Winter 16:30
Oh, that’s great. Is that something that you can have like custom with the Molly Bears?

Angelica 16:36
Yeah.

Winter 16:36
Okay because we don’t have one. That was not on our radar because I did not know that there was something you could do like that. Then I started talking to more people. I was like, oh, maybe I should get a Molly Bear. That would be fun to have something that is his weight kind of represents our son.

Angelica 16:54
You can get one at any point.

Winter 16:56
Yeah.

Angelica 16:57
My mom actually had a pregnancy loss between my brother and me. So that’s, you know 30 plus years.

Winter 17:09
Yeah.

Angelica 17:10
And she got a Molly Bear.

Angelica 17:11
Oh, that’s great. So, how far along was her loss? I’m curious.

Angelica 17:20
She was about 17 weeks along.

Winter 17:22
Yeah.

Angelica 17:23
But it was the 80s, so I mean, in circumstances where maybe a nurse would have offered to let her hold the baby, or see the baby they didn’t give her that opportunity. They didn’t let her labor. They just did a DNC patched her up and sent her out the door.

Winter 17:41
Yeah.

Angelica 17:42
They don’t even really know what happens to the baby.

Winter 17:44
Yeah, isn’t that just I’m so grateful when I hear stories from different times that I’m like, we are a little bit– it seems like we get a little bit more time to be with our child to figure out things. To be able to mourn and grieve. That it just yeah, so grateful that it’s a little different than back in the 70s, or a different time. That’s cool that she was able to get a Molly Berry. I think that’s great. Um, any other things that you guys have to remember Ezra by?

Angelica 18:20
A lot of people have given me jewelry. So I have a ring with his name on it? I don’t know if you can see it.

Winter 18:27
Oh, yeah, it’s a little small but that’s okay!

Angelica 18:29
Bracelets and then I actually had this necklace made.

Winter 18:30
Oh look at that.

Angelica 18:35
It has his picture on one side then–

Winter 18:42
Oh, I love that!

Angelica 18:45
Then his date of birth on the other.

Winter 18:46
Look at his cute little footprint. Those are so cute. Did you just have that made?

Angelica 18:53
You send the photo files to them. Then they just adjust them to size.

Winter 18:59
That is great.

Angelica 19:00
Then they put it on there. Other people have sent us lots of things like that to just really thoughtful things, but then we have the things from the hospital as well. So we have his little footprint.

Winter 19:14
Oh, I totally can’t see that. It’s a little too. Oh, I see it there it is! That’s perfect. That’s perfect. Okay.

Angelica 19:24
Then the hospital gave us– so this is a blanket that they said for Philippa.

Winter 19:29
Oh for her.

Angelica 19:32
Then they also sent her a teddy bear.

Winter 19:34
Oh, that’s so sweet.

Angelica 19:35
Then we have photo books like I made this one for Pippa because the one that Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep got made for us is really big.

Winter 19:47
Oh!

Angelica 19:48
Every time she tried to pull it down, I was worried that she was going to give herself a concussion. So I made her a little one that has so you can write on the inside out.

Winter 20:00
That is so cool.

Angelica 20:03
It’s small for small hands.

Winter 20:05
Yeah, so she can reference that. Oh, that. So um, so the big album is from, so I lay me down to sleep that is cool. I didn’t realize that they made albums.

Angelica 20:17
It’s actually from I can’t remember the name of the company, but they’re contracted through the hospital.

Winter 20:28
Okay.

Angelica 20:29
So the hospital kind of links them together.

Winter 20:32
Yeah.

Angelica 20:32
Now I lay me down to Sleep. Then they just make a photo book for you.

Winter 20:36
That is really cool.

Angelica 20:38
Using the files that they took when they got the photographs.

Winter 20:42
Yeah.

Angelica 20:42
In the hospital and having it.

Winter 20:46
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that looks awesome. And what a beautiful, like, kind of just a remembrance, being able to flip through those photos regularly and easily. So I think that’s awesome.

Angelica 21:01
Then they made– When I thought about what I was going to do for a baby book, because I was thinking about that after the fact, I just broke down. I was looking online, and there is a memorial baby book that they make called I love you still.

Winter 21:17
Yes, I have seen that. But I have not gotten it. So you can just put–

Angelica 21:23
That’s Pippa’s contribution. But it has information about you and you can put pictures in what your family looks like before that. So then it goes month by month. So for seven months, and eventually, you get to the point where you were when you lost. So there are just blank pages. But it’s a way to kind of include that information. I feel like it’s almost like a self help book too. Because at the back it’s got prompts like, how have you changed? What things have helped you? I am grateful for.

Winter 22:10
I think that’s so–

Angelica 22:11
You can use it like a journal.

Winter 22:14
I am, I will share a link to that because I have like I said, I that just barely showed up on my radar. And I was like, Oh, I might need to check that out. That is really cool. There’s kind of this option to create a baby book in a sense. Yeah, cuz you would record you would record all those things.

Angelica 22:34
I remember writing them down after we came home from the hospital. It was pretty quick after that, I started to write things down just because I could feel the fog starting to set in. It’s still there. You know, I still feel so foggy. But having some of those things in writing.

Winter 22:54
Yeah.

Angelica 22:56
Is helpful. It can help me to jog my memory a little bit. Every time that I feel like his memories are slipping away, I just feel like I’m losing a part of him. It’s just hard.

Winter 23:09
Yes. Yeah, those memories are– Writing it down writing things down has been key for us, too. So even if it’s just a quick note on my phone. If I remember something I try– we tried to do that, like I do that on my phone, my husband, I know that he usually keeps a little notes file as well. And so yeah, I think writing it down as quickly as possible is always super helpful. Then I have actually really enjoyed going back and looking at some of the things that I wrote. I do notice some changes, right? Like you.

Angelica 23:47
Yeah.

Winter 23:48
Yeah, you kind of notice changes in yourself. Then also, like, Oh, I don’t remember that. But then now it jogs my memory to something else that I had felt at the time. So yeah, so–

Angelica 23:59
I’ve always been horrible about writing, started journal, and then put in a couple that five years later stumble upon it again. But I was amazed by the number of people who gifted us journals.

Winter 24:14
Yeah.

Angelica 24:14
I thought, okay. So I did start writing in a journal.

Winter 24:19
Great!

Angelica 24:19
I figured that, you know, I can’t, I often can’t write in a diary, like dear diary, you know, because for some reason, it just doesn’t. It doesn’t establish a habit for me.

Winter 24:34
Yeah.

Angelica 24:34
So I’ve started writing letters to him.

Winter 24:38
Oh, okay.

Angelica 24:39
Letters to Ezra like I’m talking to him about the day. Things that I was thinking about that day, ways that I was thinking about him. The things that reminded me of him, just like having a conversation with him.

Winter 24:51
Yeah.

Angelica 24:52
That’s been helpful.

Winter 24:54
That’s awesome. A little bit of inclusion in your day. I like that a lot. So, Nick was, you mentioned your husband, Nick, he was very, how has he handled all of this in this? The last 10 months?

Angelica 25:14
He like me, he has just been kind of all over the map because it’s just a roller coaster of emotions. It really is. But to start with, he just seemed so strangely serene. You know, I mentioned that when they first wheeled me into the recovery room, and I saw him there holding Ezra. He was telling me that another baby had been born. And I said, I started to cry. And he said, No, it’s okay, we’re grateful that their baby is okay, and grateful that everything is okay for them. He just kept repeating that word for the subsequent three or four weeks. I’m just so grateful and grateful, I had a chance to meet him and hold.

Angelica 26:02
As time passed, I could tell that he was definitely just trying, he was trying to kind of keep it together for me. To a certain extent, because he has definitely had his moments where he needs to be the strong one, or he just needs somebody else’s support. I kept telling him not to do that at the very beginning, because I knew that he was bound to. I just didn’t want him to feel like he had to bear the weight of everything, and do all the hard stuff, especially when you’re making plans for a funeral. One of the photos that I shared with you is the final draft of Ezra’s headstone. Nick actually designed that. So, you know, just having to do all of these hard things, and to not have help and support yourself. I just wanted him to know that he didn’t have to do that to himself, you know, that he is worthy of having help.

Winter 27:07
Yeah, I am actually a little curious about if Nick, how the process of designing Ezra’s headstone was for him. My husband, and I designed our we, we actually got a little bench for our son. I found it strangely therapeutic to do that, because it was like, I would be, you know, setting up a crib for him, or, you know, doing something, it felt like a thing I could do for him. Like I was gonna create something. So I’m just curious to know if Nick felt some sort of, like, Hey, I’m doing something for my son, like, I’m making him something, you know, like just interesting.

Angelica 27:53
You know, I had never asked him that specifically, but I know that after he would after he passed a couple of hours of work on the design. He would seem like he was pretty emotionally depleted.

Winter 28:09
Really?

Angelica 28:12
You know, but they came out so lovely. It just I can’t help but think of it as a labor of love.

Winter 28:21
Yeah.

Angelica 28:22
On his part.

Winter 28:23
Yeah, for sure. I that’s really cool that he did that. Because that is, I’ll be honest, I was totally checked out that fog had set in when we were planning funeral stuff. I was so grateful for Lee because he really just like I said, he, I felt like he stepped up. He was like, I gotta take care of this. I gotta take care of my family. This is the way I’m going to take care of my family as best as possible. So sounds like Nick was that way as well?

Angelica 28:53
Yeah. It is amazing. Oh, my gosh, it was amazing. Just how the shock affects you. There are so many beautiful things that I’ve heard other parents have done for their kids. I think to myself, that’s an obvious one. Why didn’t I do that too? Like, for example, at Ezra’s funeral there were no flowers. It was June. You know?

Winter 29:19
Yeah.

Angelica 29:21
I didn’t even think about the fact that there should have been flowers. Some people said that they played music. My head just was not there.

Winter 29:29
Yeah.

Angelica 29:31
And I don’t know why.

Winter 29:32
Well, I mean when was the last time you planned a funeral? Angelica, like really? It’s, it just is that you just don’t ever think you’re going to be planning a funeral, you know, at our age, right? So why would you know, to get flowers. The only reason why we had flowers for our son was because my mother in law said, usually, you get some flowers and I’m like, Oh, okay. We’ll order some flowers. Like Somebody had to tell me what to do. And I was grateful for that. Because like you said, I just didn’t have a head on my shoulders at that time I was completely out of it.

Angelica 30:08
It’s not like we didn’t have flowers. We had flowers.

Winter 30:14
Yeah.

Angelica 30:14
I think before all of us, we had one vase that would disappear every single time that we needed it. Now I have a closet full of vases. I almost kind of can’t stand having flowers in a vase in my house, just because of how many flowers that were, it’s almost a triggering thing.

Winter 30:35
Yeah.

Angelica 30:37
But I could have gathered together any one of those and had like, you know, a big bouquet for his funeral. My brain just was not there.

Winter 30:48
Yeah. That, I think, is completely understandable. It’s completely understandable. So I am curious, if you have had, if somebody did something for you, or said anything to you, that was like, you want to remember that. And it was so you, you really appreciated what they said or what they did for you, in the last 10 months.

Angelica 31:13
That varies. So that morning, the morning that Ezra was born, we were sitting in a hospital room, and flowers arrived. I don’t have the butterfly, the butterfly is somewhere else. But it was this arrangement from downstairs. It had a butterfly on it and had a card. It was from the neonatologists and nurse practitioners on my floor. Because they knew what had happened. It’s not like I had told anybody.

Winter 31:46
Yeah.

Angelica 31:46
But they knew what had happened. They cared enough to send me something to say we understand. This sucks. Since then, so many people have done the same that they’ve brought forward and I feel like I am eternally indebted to so many people. The list is just too long for me to really pinpoint any one particular person because

Angelica 32:15
I just felt so much love and support in a time when that kind of thing feels impossible. With a pandemic and with the concerns that you have of potentially making somebody else sick. You know, people who would come up and look at me and say, I’ve got a mask on you’ve got a mask on can I give you a hug? I think one thing I remember is that I hadn’t been hugged by anybody other than my husband and daughter for months, right. I got more hugs in the couple of days following my son’s death than I had from January, February on.

Winter 33:12
Yeah.

Angelica 33:13
I mean, it was just that human touch that I had forgotten was so necessary. They were there when I needed them. There were so many people who showed up, who I haven’t talked to in ages. But they offered to make food and take my daughter to the park and sit with me and cry with me. Like I was saying with my co-workers who sacrificed their own time off, so that I have a couple of extra weeks to pull myself together. To determine whether or not I was going to be able to go back to work. Now I feel like I have no choice. You know, how can I? How can I leave someplace full of some wonderful, amazing human beings?

Winter 34:07
Yeah.

Angelica 34:09
I just feel so grateful. Despite the awful nature of the experience, though. I feel so grateful to have so many people in my life who love me, it just gives you this, this renewed faith in humanity.

Winter 34:29
Yes, that is a perfect way of putting it actually. Because Yeah, we felt, yeah, just the love, like we just felt so cared for and loved. Sounds like you had a similar experience, which is very, it’s wonderful. It’s wonderful.

Angelica 34:47
And just hearing people wanting to talk about him. Even though it’s really awkward sometimes triggering things that people say regardless of how many of those I have countered, I just find that anybody who is willing to talk about him with me, I just appreciate them so much.

Winter 35:12
Yeah.

Angelica 35:13
Because I know that when you’re talking about a stillborn baby it’s kind of a conversation stopper. But anybody who looks at you and says tell me more, or I getcha, you know, you can talk, talk about him any time or call me anytime that you’re having a really rough go of it. Those people who have reached out to help when you have no clue what to do, when the only thing that you can say is, what do I do next? Because I think that was the question just cycling in my brain for, you know, in the hours and weeks following Ezra’s death. I was just thinking to myself, what do I do now? You know, I just need somebody to tell me what I need to do. Because I can’t make those decisions. Or I can’t make this. I can’t determine what needs to be done on my own anymore. My brain just is not there anymore.

Winter 36:24
Yeah, that’s. You say that and I was like, Oh, yeah, that’s exactly how I was. I could not wrap my brain around things that I needed to do. Like, yeah, thank goodness for people that kind of kept our lives together for those months after. Yeah. It’s just so traumatizing. It’s just so traumatizing. Is there? You have mentioned that people have said some awkward things, obviously. Is there anything that maybe is not the best thing to say to a lost mom that maybe has rubbed you a little wrong? I don’t want you to call anybody out. I don’t want you to. Yeah, I don’t want you to call anybody out. But if there’s anything that is because I know that people just want to know what to say, right? They just want to know what to say. And they kind of want to know what not to say I think so that it just makes it like not so awkward, I guess.

Angelica 37:22
To start with, like if at the very beginning, I really struggled with religious platitudes. You know, God has a plan for everything. You know, there’s a reason for everything. Just because I, my husband and I, we’re, we were raised Catholic, but we haven’t been practicing. So there was just a part of me that just couldn’t wrap my head around this idea that there was a, you know, at the moment that there was a reason for his death. I just thought that stung a little bit.

Angelica 38:01
But I think as time has passed that it’s become less triggering. But initially, it was extremely triggering. Then just anybody talking about, you know, somebody else’s pregnancy for somebody else’s baby, really close on. Really close to the loss itself.

Angelica 38:24
I remember there was a friend of mine who came in and she’s very sweet and asked her how she was doing because she’d asked me how I was doing. I was just trying to normalize things. In the days after we got home from the hospital. Oh, things are good. She was talking to me about a mutual friend of ours, she said, yeah you’re not going to see them for a couple of weeks. Because they’re going into quarantine for about two or three weeks before their baby’s born. But the babies do like early June or something like that. Early July, early July or something like that. Ezra was due on July 15. His c-section was scheduled for July 9. I just fell apart.

Angelica 39:10
So I think that just talking about babies and pregnancy in general can be good for green, but I think it’s so hard. It’s just so so hard. And I feel like anybody who is even willing to try should be given grace.

Winter 39:29
Yeah.

Angelica 39:30
Because they’re willing to enter that awkward zone with you. Knowing that, you know that not everything they say is going to feel just right. For every person. It’s so different. But I think the thing that helps the most is just all of those comments that are validating, you know, like giving those people the space to talk about what they’re feeling. Thinking and then saying, Yeah, it does suck. Yes, this is hard. Yes, I hear you. Just confirming that they’re not alone.

Winter 40:13
Yeah.The validating and the confirming of your feelings. I think sometimes we’re so apt to you know, like you mentioned before you kind of push away those feelings or you sweep them under the rug or you just kind of push them away like I’m not sad. I’m not angry, I’m not all of these things, I’m not depressed, I’m not anxious, whatever. We have these feelings and to have somebody say, yeah, this really is hard. And this is horrible. This is devastating. That helps us emotionally when somebody validates what I’m feeling.

Angelica 40:53
Yeah, that’s a great way of putting it. There is this book that one of our friends gave us. Actually, it was a whole family, they pulled together and they got a book, and then they got a little bunny rabbit. For Pippa, it looks like the bunny rabbit.

Angelica 41:11
It’s called the Rabbit listened. It’s the story about this little boy who had built up this tower with blocks. Then this, you know, this flock of black birds came down and knocked it down. He’s just sitting in the midst of this beautiful thing. Various animals are cutting through. You know, the bear says I want to be angry about it, you know, let’s be angry. But even the little boy doesn’t say anything because he doesn’t want to be angry at that point. So it just goes through these animals. At the end, it has a little bunny rabbit who just sits there. And then just comes and sits next to me a little bit quietly until the little boy is ready to say something. Then eventually the little boy doesn’t want to be angry, a little boy does not want to talk about what he remembers, and he doesn’t want to be sad if he tells him what to hide. The little rabbit is just sitting there just listening. So it’s a good reminder to me to do that for the other people in my life. Because I’m not the only one who lost someone.

Angelica 42:17
You know, my parents and Nick’s parents lost a grandchild. Our siblings lost a nephew.

Winter 42:25
Yeah.

Angelica 42:27
You know, our close friends. We always refer to them as aunts and uncles. I mean, they may well have lost a nephew as well. And, they all have really complex feelings around them. So, you know, no one can be together. And even though you’re not experiencing things the same way. You can be together and it helps so much.

Winter 42:50
Yeah. That grace that you give others as well. Is really important.

Angelica 42:57
Yeah.

Winter 42:58
So important because it’s really easy to forget that there are other people that lost someone important to them, too. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that just reminded me of my in-laws, who they love. They love our son so much. And they have expressed that. So that’s a good, that’s a good reminder. This has been a really wonderful conversation. I really appreciate all that you’ve said and shared with us. Is there any last bit of advice that you would like to share with either somebody that is going through this right now, or maybe somebody that’s supporting a lost mom or lost dad?

Angelica 43:44
Lost parents I would say, just be gentle with yourself. There is no wrong you’d agree. And anything for anybody, anybody whose parent has lost a baby or somebody who’s trying to support them to reach out, just continuing to continue to reach out for those resources. For those people who can help you there are so many wonderful ways that you could help each other through it. You know, when you’re ready, those resources will be there.

Angelica 44:23
You don’t have to go to a support group right away. You don’t have to start searching for other lost parents trying to grant yourself right away. But when the day comes that you feel like you’re ready they’ll be there. Those organizations will be there. There are actually support groups for families for family members. One of them is through the Star Legacy Foundation. They have a monthly meeting for grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, people who just want to be there. Just keep reaching out because for as lonely as this feels, you’re not alone.

Winter 45:16
Thank you so much Angelica, that’s some very good advice.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Our Experience Losing Our Stillborn Son During COVID-19 Pandemic | ADVICE

by

Parents Bianca and Michael share their experience of delivering their stillborn son Jalen during the restrictions of the COVID-19 pandemic. They also share things that have helped them grieve and mourn and celebrate their son, who was stillborn at 20 weeks and 6 days. They also share some helpful things that people did for them, who were supporting them, and they also share what NOT to say to a parent who has just experienced a stillbirth.

Watch here (YouTube):

Listen here (podcast):

Time Stamps:

0:00 Jalen
1:30 They knew
2:23 Only three weeks
5:40 Memory Table
6:23 Necklace
8:18 the weirdest places
11:20 Virtual Counseling Group
14:28 Journal
15:15 Jalen’s brother
17:01 Due date
18:02 Things not to say
19:40 You have two others
21:01 “Vacation”
25:33 Are you okay?
27:25 Prayers
28:12 Triggers
30:33 Last piece of advice

Wanna help?

  • DONATE! Consider giving a one-time or recurring donation to help with production and hosting costs: Go here for more information.
  • SUBSCRIBE! Head over here to subscribe to our YouTube channel and our podcasts.
  • SHARE! Spread the word to a loss mom or dad, or those who may be supporting a bereaved parent. Send them a link to this post. Pin one of our graphics on Pinterest.

You might appreciate these other episodes:

  • Watch/listen Michael’s (Bianca’s husband) birth episode of son Jalen: Click here
  • Watch/listen Bianca’s (Michael’s wife) birth episode of son Jalen: Click here
Baby Jalen

Full Transcription:

Full Transcription:

Winter  0:00  

We are back today with both Bianca and Michael on our advice episode for Still A Part of Us. I just want to say thank you again, Bianca and Michael, for telling your son Jalen’s story to us today. That was super special. We really- I, it was very emotional. I’m grateful that you are willing to come on so soon after his passing. So thank you. Thank you again, for coming on.

Michael  0:27  

Thank you.

Winter  0:27  

As to give some context to our listeners, when was Jalen born?

Bianca  0:32  

So Jalen was born on February 1st of 2021.

Winter  0:36  

That, at the time of this recording everybody, that was just a little over a month ago. So this is very new for them. This is very, very raw for them. So thank you so much for coming on. It’s been just a little over a month. Tell me how that has been. As you guys have moved throughout your regular normal routines. How has that been to try and get back into life?

Bianca  0:59  

For me? Um, it’s been very challenging. I do have my days of feeling down and defeated and feeling hopeless. Then I have my days where they’re good days, and I’m able to smile. 

Winter  1:16  

Yeah. How about you, Michael? 

Michael  1:18  

For me, every day is different. One day, I can be perfect. The next day seems like I don’t want to do anything. 

Winter  1:25  

Yeah.

Michael  1:25  

It seems like me and Bianca are just staring at the wall constantly asking why.

Winter  1:30  

Yeah. 

Michael  1:30  

Every time we turn around it seems like we have to tell someone new our story because they knew we were expecting another one. Or just they’re asking, which I understand they are asking a lot of questions. But sometimes it’s just like, I can’t, I could just tell you the A through Z, but I can’t tell you the rest of the alphabet, right now. 

Winter  1:50  

The why yeah. 

Michael  1:50  

It’s just too hard. 

Winter  1:51  

Yeah, that’s probably the worst part. I think when people are like, so happy. They’re so happy for you. And they are expecting to hear good news. And you have the complete opposite. It’s because they feel terrible about asking the question, I’m sure you’ve seen that before. And I’m wondering, did you guys take some time off from work? It sounds like Bianca, you’ve been working from home. So were you able to take any time off any sort of maternity leave or FMLA or anything like that?

Bianca  2:23  

So I was able to take three weeks off. One week for the surgery. 

Winter  2:31  

Oh, okay. 

Bianca  2:32  

Which was before, 

Winter  2:33  

Right. 

Bianca  2:34  

I had Jalen, and then two weeks after I gave birth I had off. So I have three weeks total. In the state of Massachusetts. I didn’t qualify for maternity leave, because my baby was under 24 weeks, and he was not born alive. Had he been born alive. I would have qualified, but because he had passed before he was born, we didn’t qualify. 

Winter  2:34  

Oh.

Bianca  2:46  

I did not get- I only got the three grievance days. Then everything else was basically like PTO. 

Winter  3:11  

Oh, that is a– that’s a punch in the gut, isn’t it?

Bianca  3:18  

It was. It really was because it’s like you’re already going through enough. It’s like, I gave birth but yeah, my baby is not here. Right. You would think they would have something in place for situations like that. Yeah, so you’re still going through the same process as a mother that had given birth to a baby that was born alive.

It’s just that, you know, our babies were born sleeping and we’re still going through the same, the same feeling of lactating and you’re going, you’re going to be still bleeding and you’re still going to the physical pain. Your body just went through a traumatic experience. You just gave birth and I’m going to have the same feelings of like, you know, body wise. 

Winter  4:13  

Yeah.

Bianca  4:14  

I still need time to heal. So, I just didn’t understand that whole concept of like, what they thought it was like, just because he wasn’t born alive. You know? That was hard for me. 

Winter  4:28  

Oh, it is. It feels like such an injustice. You’re just like, I don’t have a baby to have this justified. Yep, the bleeding and the lactating. It’s just It feels like a second- It’s just a second hurt to it all. I’m assuming Michael, you probably weren’t able to take any time off either or, you know, didn’t qualify for any additional bereavement time?

Michael  4:58  

I didn’t- I did not. So, when I told my boss what happened on that Sunday, she immediately said take the week, don’t even show up. Don’t worry about anything. We’ll take it from there. I wanted to take longer, but since Mass. didn’t see it as worthy for paternal. She’s going to take her maternity leave. I felt like I had to go. I wasn’t fully mentally there. 

Winter  5:24  

Yeah. 

Michael  5:24  

But I had to be the one to go back to work.

Winter  5:28  

Since you guys have been. It’s just been so recent. And I realized that you will develop other things that you do to kind of celebrate Jalen’s life. But what have you guys done so far to honor him?

Michael  5:40  

The memory table that we have in his memory is huge. It feels like my stuff just got pushed off to the side now. He’s just, he’s everywhere. I’ve got clothes. I’ve got Build a Bear bears around here. Those candle lights that you just hit with the light and it will come on, pictures hanging everywhere. 

Winter  6:01  

Yeah. 

Michael  6:02  

He really seems like he’s here with us. 

Winter  6:05  

That’s great. I think that’s awesome. That’s in your room is that right? 

Michael  6:10  

Yeah. 

Winter  6:10  

So and then, if you didn’t get to hear what they have on their memory table, and like in their memory box, you should listen to the birth episode that Bianca and Michael have talked about. It sounds like you guys have kind of a little a lot of tokens. You also have necklaces that you guys wear. Can you describe the necklace a little bit more?

Bianca  6:32  

Yep. So it is a mom holding a baby or cradling a baby in her arms. Then it has some diamonds. It’s a heart shape. 

Winter  6:42  

That’s awesome. 

Bianca  6:43  

And it’s actually like you can put ashes in it. Oh, so it’s like an urn. 

Winter  6:48  

Yeah. 

Bianca  6:49  

I don’t want to touch the- I don’t put the ashes in it. Because he was so little. 

Winter  6:54  

Yeah.

Bianca  6:55  

I don’t want to tamper with his urn that we already have. 

Winter  6:59  

Right.

Bianca  7:00  

So I just wear this in remembrance of him. And I leave his ashes alone. 

Winter  7:00  

Yes. 

Bianca  7:06  

Yeah. I don’t want anyone touching that.

Winter  7:10  

Yeah, I wouldn’t either. I would be like, no, no, don’t nope. Don’t mess with my son. You guys work? You have two children. I’m sure you’re quite busy. But how do you take time to set aside some time to mourn because it is so new and so raw? And so it’s just so terrible. I’m just curious to know how you guys are handling the grieving process.

Michael  7:36  

Really, whenever I guess we find time, or that sucks, but that’s more or less like we’ll do it when we’re cooking. When we’re just laying in bed not really doing anything. It sucks. Because when you’re when you don’t want to mourn is when you’re more like she’ll wake up at 3am crying and I’m like, I guess I’m up with you. 

Winter  7:57  

Yeah.

Michael  7:58  

Consoling you. It just happens very randomly. We I want to mourn and it’s like, okay, I guess I’m not right now. 

Winter  8:07  

Yeah.

Winter  8:07  

I’m gonna be doing something like, oh, here we go.

Winter  8:09  

Yeah. Isn’t that so funny? I did not expect that to be starting to cry right in the middle of the grocery store or whatever. Right?

Michael  8:16  

Right, right.

Bianca  8:18  

Yeah. So for me, it comes in like, the weirdest times like, it just comes out of nowhere. Like, it just hits me. I can be working and I’m fine. I was just laughing and then I get so emotional. I think seeing baby boys is very triggering for me. I will see a baby boy and then I’m just like, gosh, like, get it together, get it together. Then we have because of this whole COVID thing, we have to wear masks going out. So it’s like I’ll have my mask on, but you can see tears coming down like trying to wipe my face.

But it’s so hard. Seeing like, baby boys or going into a Walmart or Target and I’m only supposed to go grocery shopping. Then you know, the baby aisle is right there. So like you’re, you see the stuff and you’re like, man, this is just I didn’t think it was gonna be this hard. But even this is probably why I don’t go out anymore.

Like I try not to leave the house and go to stores. I’ll just order online because seeing baby things is very emotional for me, especially after a long day of dealing with the kids. Once I have time to like, wind down, my mind starts wandering. Then I start to feel myself thinking and asking myself why, or that it should be different. 

Michael  9:44  

It’s really hard going places. She has her appointments that she has a follow up for postpartum. Unfortunately, I can’t go but when the doctor calls I say listen, she can’t sit in the waiting room with pregnant women. You’re going to have to –When she’s outside, she can call but she has to bring her in back door front, straight into the room. I don’t care how it happens, but you can’t, she can’t sit in there. 

Winter  10:08  

Oh, that is actually a great piece of advice too, because it really is a trigger like it is. It is so hard to see all of those things that just remind you that you’re not pregnant and that you lost a baby. And it is, that is a really smart idea, Michael, good job. You look. Good job standing up for your wife. Like that’s awesome.

Um, you did mention that you have Bianca go to or, quote unquote, go to I’m assuming zoom meetings for like a counseling group. Do you attend Michael too or is it? I’m not sure. Is it just for mom or dad also? 

Michael  10:48  

I attend. I’m not on the camera. I’m sitting there next to her. 

Winter  10:51  

That’s great. 

Michael  10:53  

I wasn’t not fully there yet ready to sit, or tell my side of the story because not most men don’t. 

Winter  11:01  

Yeah.

Michael  11:01  

But I am there with her.

Winter  11:04  

That’s great. Well, just some of the stuff I at least for the counseling groups that we’ve gone to has been, they just bring up things to think about and how you can process it. So I think it works. Regardless if you’re on camera or not. 

Michael  11:18  

Definitely 

Winter  11:20  

Bianca what are so of the things– both of you actually, what are some of the things that has helped by attending or listening in on those counseling groups or those grief groups?

Bianca  11:28  

It is, the biggest one for me is that it’s okay to feel what you’re feeling. I have a very strong support system, I will say that, but for me, it’s like my support, like some of the people in my support system, have never gone through what I went through. So it’s very hard to put yourself in a place where you really don’t know what to say, or how to say it. So I think there’s a theory like, okay, well, the baby’s not here, or everything happens for a reason, right? But my baby, you know, mattered to me.

So I feel like going to those support groups allowed me to feel that it’s okay to feel what I’m feeling. I’m entitled to feel how I feel, regardless of what anyone says, because there was some someone that mattered to me, my son mattered. I’m entitled to, you know, express my emotions for him, because it only expresses the love that I had for him. 

Winter  12:36  

Yeah.

Bianca  12:36  

Me crying, and, you know, the pain that I felt was all love. It’s all out of love. And so, you know, if I make you uncomfortable, then I’m sorry, but I’m not sorry, actually. You know, this is how I feel. And you are entitled to feel that way. And I feel like it really helped me also, with, you know, going throughout everyday life and knowing that I’m not alone. Like there’s many other women in this world, that have gone through the same similar, you know, situations and we can all stand together.

Know that, you know, day by day, not gonna say it’s easy, but you know, step by step, it definitely gets easier and bearable, I would say. And manageable. Like I now know, before, like the first couple of weeks, it was just like, I was crying every day. And then I felt like crying. I went longer periods without crying. And you know, I have my days where I completely break down. But it’s manageable. And it’s okay. 

Winter  13:45  

It’s definitely a process. And it’s not linear. It feels like some days you’re like, I’m making some good progress. Then you’re like, oh, just kidding. Next day back to where you started. It feels like so. Right? 

Bianca  13:56  

Yeah. 

Winter  13:57  

Is there anything that you guys do, or have been able to do to kind of physically escape things that you like to do to distract yourself? I’m just curious, because some people like to have an out sometimes because I think grieving, sometimes it feels like you should grieve or cry all the time to feel close to your son. That’s the way I felt actually, when my son passed away. I realized I couldn’t sustain that. I just couldn’t sustain that. So is there anything that you guys do to try and have an out? Give yourself a break? I guess.

Bianca  14:28  

Yeah, I journal.

Winter  14:30  

Oh, good.

Bianca  14:31  

Pen and paper, get my thoughts out whatever I’m feeling in that moment, writing it down on pen and paper and seeing it has helped me. I’m not one to really talk about how I’m feeling because I feel like no one really gets me and they don’t understand what I’m going through in this moment.

So writing it out, I feel like is equivalent to me talking to somebody that gets me. I’m able to say exactly how I feel even if what I’m feeling right now is I’m angry, I will write angry across the paper and put all the reasons why I feel that I’m angry because this is just how I feel in this moment. Then seeing it on paper and letting it out makes me feel so much better because I’m just like, I let it out. And I no longer have that feeling inside of me, you know what I mean?

Winter  15:22  

Yes, for sure. Writing is so therapeutic. And you’re right, I think that there’s– we have a great support system as well. But having somebody that you feel like can understand you is really super important. There’s not very many people that have had the same experiences you have, or I have, and so yes, having a journal, writing it out is super great. 

Bianca  15:45  

Definitely. 

Winter  15:46  

It’s so helpful. How about you, Michael, anything that you do to release, or maybe even just check out for a second? To give yourself a rest?

Michael  15:55  

Yeah, definitely. My son definitely. Does it for me. 

Winter  15:58  

Oh, really? 

Michael  15:59  

Yeah, he’ll say dad,let’s go watch something.? Dad, can we go here? Dad let’s go play together. Just anything. I’m just like, okay, I appreciate you. Even though he doesn’t understand what I’m going through. 

Winter  16:10  

Yeah.

Michael  16:10  

He definitely-

Winter  16:11  

-Is helping

Michael  16:13  

 He draws my mind somewhere else. So that definitely, definitely helps.

Winter  16:16  

That’s great. You guys, you got a buddy right there. Taking care of you, for sure. You guys have talked about when you had his funeral, you actually went to a park afterward and did a balloon release. You’ve talked about Valentine’s Day, because that was the first holiday right after he passed away. And you guys wrote a letter to him or wrote cards to him for somebody that was far away. Like, I really loved that sentiment.

What other things are you guys going to try to do to celebrate? I know that that’s, I mean, there’s still a lot of things that are coming up. But you know, you do talk about his due date, and there will be a first birthday and there will be, you know, all of these things that are coming up. Have you guys thought through any more things that you’d like to try and do?

Bianca  17:01  

So for him, for my due date, which is coming up on June 14, I want to get away, like, we’re gonna plan a little family vacation that weekend. 

Winter  17:16  

Good. 

Bianca  17:17  

My due date is on a Monday. We’re gonna try to go away for the weekend. Like, even if it’s like Saturday through Monday, or something just to be away and be with each other. Because it’s definitely going to be hard. We may do like a balloon release for him. And like, you know, I know, we were gonna do family photos together.

I was planning on bringing his little urn to include him in there. Probably like a balloon for him. Like, just to, like, keep him in our memory. I don’t know, it’s gonna be tough, but I feel like it definitely, it’ll be worth it. It’ll be something that we can remember him by.

Winter  18:02  

Yeah, those holidays, you will, you will find are tricky. They can be just going to warn you Mother’s Day and Father’s Day. Those are tricky. So just kind of keep that in mind if you approach them. Bianca and Mike, these are questions I like to ask every single episode of the advice, because I think a lot of people that are supporting lost moms and lost dads want to know what to say and what not to say.

So is there anything that you would recommend people maybe not say in that has or something that somebody said to you that maybe hurt you that you were like, oh, that was probably not the best thing to say. So something that they shouldn’t say? And then if there’s anything that you really liked, that somebody said to you that you’re like that that was helpful, that helps me get through this?

Bianca  18:53  

Yeah, so for me, I would say the one thing that I hated the most was telling me everything happens for a reason, because you’re telling me this, but I can’t grasp the concept, or the reason behind why it happened. I get it, and I understand a lot of people don’t know what to say.

I’ve told many people if you don’t know what to say, just don’t say anything. Just give me a hug. You know, like, um, that would be the best thing you can do for me, but I’ve had everything happens for a reason, or at least you weren’t far along. 

Winter  19:35  

Oh.

Bianca  19:36  

Don’t say that. You don’t say stuff like that. 

Winter  19:39  

Yeah.

Michael  19:40  

For me the one that kicked me was at least you have two others. 

Winter  19:44  

Oh, yeah. 

Michael  19:46  

That was a real like, don’t taunt me to choose who– which kid is more important to me. 

Winter  19:54  

That’s a great way of putting it. 

Michael  19:56  

Yeah, I don’t need that. I also think people should just listen. So when I told everybody she was pregnant, every time someone asked me how she was or like what happened? Like she gave birth and they immediately said, congratulations. Then I’d be like, it was- hold on it was it was a stillbirth.

That one hurt me the most because I got it all the time because people are like, oh, we went to the hospital and everybody knew I was in the delivery ward. Everyone was oh, congratulations. I’m like, it wasn’t like that. 

Winter  20:29  

Yeah. 

Michael  20:30  

I think people should just really listen, let the person get out what they want before you start giving out, congratulations.

Winter  20:37  

Yeah. 

Bianca  20:38  

It’s just like, even with the asking of the questions. It’s like, it’s okay to talk when you’re ready to talk. You don’t have to just because someone asked the question, you don’t necessarily have to answer, you can just say like, you know, I’m not ready to talk about it right now. I got that a lot. I went back to work after three weeks. And it was like, oh, congratulations. And it’s like–

Michael  21:01  

Or someone saw that she was out for a while. She was really out two weeks. When she went back that Monday, someone said “How was your vacation.” It completely took her. She was done. It was another week after that. So that’s why she was out for three weeks.

But yeah, so I think people should definitely just listen, because when they said that to her, and she called me, I can tell it broke her the little bit of traction she gained or tried to recover, or recovery she was kicked back 10 steps.

Winter  21:34  

Yeah, that is devastating. A vacation? Yeah, no, no. This is one thing I’ve noticed in talking to both of you today. I have noticed you guys have been so supportive of each other, you really kind of stick up for each other and are very sweet to each other. It’s been kind of, it’s been kind of cute to watch you guys.

So how would you say you guys are doing? How would you say the other person is doing for this grooming process? Is there anything that you’re concerned about? I know, it’s only been a month. But is there anything that you’re worried about for your spouse?

Bianca  22:06  

I’m worried that Michael didn’t have a chance to grieve just yet. I know he goes through his moments of sadness, of course. But again, guys grieve differently. And he’s so worried about me and trying to make sure that I’m okay that I want him to make sure that, you know, he takes the time he needs for himself to grieve properly.

Winter  22:31  

You guys are just the best, but you’re like you need to take care of yourself. That’s what I tell my husband all the time. So how about you Michael, what do you think of how your wife’s doing?

Michael  22:41  

It’s different all the time. She could be fine for four or five days. Anything as small as a commercial would send her over the edge. I definitely would agree with what was said. I didn’t fully mourn, but when I see her completely breaking down, crying, can’t eat. She didn’t eat after giving birth, she didn’t eat for probably about two weeks.

So I think I go into the, I want to be the defense for I want her to I want her to eat, I want her to rest and I need her to sleep. All doctors are calling , they’re saying, oh, well, let’s just take this depression medication. I’m just like she doesn’t need that just stop trying to force feed something.

Like just give her some time to grieve. It’s only been a month. It’s not like this happened X amount of years ago. So I think I definitely didn’t mourn, but I definitely put her above and beyond my needs to make sure she’s okay.

Winter  23:46  

I’m sure Bianca will appreciate that, or does appreciate that. How much you’re kind of protecting her in a way. So that is very sweet. You should take care of yourself too, though, Michael, I’m just saying. Have you guys had any thoughts about or any a-ha moments about life and death and/or, just your relationship as a couple or your family since this has happened?

Bianca  24:15  

Definitely. Yes, definitely. I now cherish my family even more, because you really never know. You can really be here today and gone tomorrow. Everything will be fine one minute, and then the next minute, everything can change in a heartbeat. So it’s like, now I’m very overprotective, especially with my children.

I find myself saying I love you to those around me a lot more and expressing how I feel because you never know when you’re going to talk to someone again, or when you’ll ever have that chance to say something again. So I try to take in every moment of the day and live in the moment. Rather than trying to Plan ahead now. 

Winter  25:02  

That’s great.

Michael  25:03  

Definitely I agree that we, I was the type of person that if she was like, let’s go to so and so’s house. I’m like, it’s Sunday, I got to work tomorrow. I’m not trying to do anything. I don’t want to do anything. Really. Now, it’s like let’s just go. We need to go see this person we haven’t, or even like, asking someone. Are you okay? I think is big for me. You never know what anybody’s going through. You never know. They might just need that one person to talk to. 

Winter  25:32  

Yeah.

Michael  25:32  

That one person to really just listen. Um, so I find myself asking friends all the time. Like, are you okay? Like, I just need to make sure you are okay. That is what’s big for me.

Winter  25:43  

That is really insightful, Michael. You never know what people are going through? And to just ask, are you doing okay, that is huge. Very good words of advice from both of you. Can I ask just a couple last questions? Was there anything that somebody did for you that really stood out to you? That was very helpful, very special, very touching to you.

I know that Michael, you mentioned that Bianca was like, get rid of the crib, get rid of the stuff. I cannot face it when I come home. And you had somebody do that for you. I thought that right there was huge.

Michael  26:21  

I think someone coming in to pick up the crib, or even someone in general. Just like, hey, I need to do something and they just come fly right in. Picking up the crib was the biggest one because the hardest thing for me to do was to break down that crib. 

Winter  26:35  

Yeah. 

Michael  26:35  

So when they came in, like I called them, he was like, I’ll be there in an hour. They dropped everything that they were doing and came to help us. That was the biggest thing anyone’s really done for us since this whole process started.

Winter  26:48  

Yeah, that’s so kind. They did it before you guys got home right from the hospital?

Michael  26:54  

Yeah, I had to meet him there, but yeah. I wanted to get it out before she even saw it.

Winter  26:58  

Yeah, yeah. And like the fact that he said they’re gonna be there in an hour. I mean, they did drop everything just to help you guys, that was awesome. Having somebody that is willing to help you at a moment’s notice is a lifesaver I think. Any other things that you guys thought stood out to you, that somebody did for you to help you through this? That is helping you through this?

Bianca  27:25  

I would say prayers from those closest to us. Like the random phone calls just to check in to see how we’re doing. I’m just thinking of you and like you’re giving us the, you know, shoulder to lean on, especially in this time, was very helpful. You know, basically just being supportive and just listening. I can call you and you would not even have to say anything, just listen to what I’m saying. 

Winter  27:58  

Yeah. 

Bianca  27:58  

It was very helpful to have those friends that would call and just check in. We can absolutely be our most vulnerable self to them.

Winter  28:11  

Yeah. 

Bianca  28:12  

That was definitely helpful. Receiving flowers for me, was something that just didn’t give me flowers. That was a trigger. 

Winter  28:24  

Really? 

Bianca  28:25  

Yes, every time the doorbell rang, and it would be like a flower delivery, it would break me into pieces. It was a constant reminder of what I just lost. Then flowers die. 

Winter  28:39  

Yeah.

Bianca  28:40  

So, you’re trying to nurture them as I was doing. And then eventually you know, they die. 

Winter  28:48  

Yeah. 

Bianca  28:49  

So it was very hard for me to try to see the flowers and all that stuff. It was very terrible for me. I didn’t like flowers. We got gift baskets with fruit like edible arrangements and stuff like that. Fruit like those were good. Because, you know, like I can, it’s something nutritious to me. 

Winter  29:12  

Yeah.

Bianca  29:12  

And, you know, in that moment of grieving and stuff like that it was very hard for me to eat. So giving someone fruit was more ideal for me. But the flowers were something that broke me down. It was a reminder of when we had to go buy flowers for the funeral. 

Winter  29:31  

Yeah.

Bianca  29:32  

It was a bad reminder. But everything else from like the phone calls to like the sympathy cards and just checking in and you know, being very supportive was very good for us. I definitely encourage people to do that. Especially when they go through a situation like this.

Winter  29:51  

Yeah. It is so nice when it feels like somebody remembers you, especially when you’re like this tragic thing kind of rocked my world. Then after the funeral, everything goes back to normal, right? Everything’s supposed to go back to normal and it’s nice to have people remember you, even to this day. It’s been two and a half years, almost three years since our son passed away, and it feels like I have people still checking in on me, which is a godsend, I think.

Bianca  30:21  

Yeah, definitely.

Winter  30:23  

Yeah. I’m curious to know, if you have any last piece of advice that you feel like, that has really helped you?

Bianca  30:33  

Um, I would say reading. Reading has helped me a lot. I read books on bereavement and books on the loss of a child. That helped me and gave me a lot of insight on the perspective of losing a child. It allowed me to put myself in a different space.

Winter  30:56  

Yeah.

Bianca  30:56  

I really realize that, you know, we’re not the only one that goes through situations like this. And somehow, some way you will get through it. That helped me a lot. Also, taking time out to focus on yourself. I have a lot of self care, even if it’s to just get away, and like, go pamper yourself, like I went and got my feet done, or went and got a body massage. So just like really pampering yourself, and you know, cherishing yourself. It was very hard for me at first because, like I had said, in the birth episode, I blamed myself and my body for failing me throughout this whole process and allowing myself to know that it’s not your fault.

You know, unfortunately, this is something that happened, it’s something that became a part of me, and now it’s my story and who I am today. I’m trying to find the true meaning of Bianca, you know what I mean? And really pick up those pieces and move forward and accept that this is my story. It ends how, you know, I allow it to end. So I have to keep pushing and learn to love myself in a new way, which I’m still learning obviously.

Winter  32:18  

Yeah, that’s, that’s very insightful. You know, you do feel like your body failed you, or something happened, but to take care of yourself. And also just remember your body is also a gift to bring these children into the world. I think that’s good to practice self care. Thank you so much for that. Bianca. Michael, do you have any last piece of advice, or anything that has helped you that you wanted to share before we close up today?

Michael  32:46  

I would say don’t hold in your feelings. While they’re as good or bad. Just tell somebody don’t just keep letting it pile up because it will. You’re doing yourself harm a disservice. Just talk to someone you really trust.

Winter  33:01  

Yeah, people need to remember that. I want to thank both of you for coming on today. I’m so sorry about your sweet Jalen, and I hope that this is a way that he can be remembered.

Bianca  33:15  

Thank you so much. 

Michael  33:16  

Thanks for having us.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

36 Ways to Survive the Holidays After Your Baby Has Died

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I’ll be honest, both my husband Lee and I don’t remember the holidays that first year after our son Brannan was born still. It had only been 6 months and we were still in survival mode, but we had a 4-year old daughter to care for and to make the holidays special for. I hope she isn’t scarred for life as she watched her parents walk around in a half-daze and/or crying. Now we’re going into our second holiday season and here is list of things that we are arming ourselves with for our second holiday season without our son.

First of all, it’s all about the expectations. Lower them. Lower what you expect from yourself, what you expect from others, what the holidays are “supposed” to be, and even for what you’re going to do to survive the holidays from this list below. Remember, we’ve just gone through something traumatic—please give yourself some grace and some wiggle room.

Take care of yourself physically

  1. Eat healthy, nutritious food every day: You don’t have to be a health nut (I enjoy all the treats that pop up this time of the year like everyone else), but try to get more healthy food options in. Grief is hard work and you need the fuel to deal with it all.
  2. Move your body everyday: Even going for a walk for 10 minutes will do wonders for your emotional state. I personally lift weights, and I am NOT the type of person you’d see and think, “Oh, she must lift weights”. I do it because I have something I like to call “anger-gy” (aka angry energy), and I’ve found that lifting heaving weights helps me channel that “angergy’, so it doesn’t spill over to my personal and professional life.
  3. Get some sleep: You might be having a difficult time sleeping–I did with so many things racing through my mind, but do the best you can, because your body needs rest. Practice good sleep hygiene. Try to make a bedtime routine. Sneak in a nap if possible. And talk to your doctor if you need additional help.
  4. Take a shower everyday: And brush your teeth. Just practice good hygiene, because you will be surprised how much better a hot shower and non-fuzzy teeth will make you feel after you’ve been crying all day.
  5. Relax: What do you like to do to relax, before you lost your baby? Getting a massage? Meditating? Taking a bath? Going on a walk? Listening to music? Reading a book? Whatever it is, get some of that in your life, because your tense shoulders and your aching head probably need it.
  6. Have a routine: Not a routine of “cry, sleep, cry, sleep”. I’m talking “Set an alarm to get up every single day, take a shower, eat something nutritious, and go for a walk” type of a routine. I wanted everything to be normal and familiar after our son died, but it wasn’t ever going to be “normal” again. A routine gives you some semblance of familiarity in your now “new normal.”  
  7. Avoid drugs and alcohol: Those can be emotion-numbing and you don’t want to not feel. You’re going to get through this if you feel all the feelings—the good and the bad. Brene Brown talks about it a little bit in her TED talk [source] about how when you numb the bad feelings, you also numb the good feelings and aren’t able to truly feel joy.

Take care of yourself mentally

  1. Go to counseling: Seeing a therapist or counselor can feel vulnerable, like you’re not strong enough and you need help or something. Guess what? You need the help. These trained professionals are equipped with tools and methods to help you navigate and process your grief. One tip: Shop around for a counselor. Not every therapist or counselor will be a good match for you.
  2. Shopping for the holidays: Navigating the crowds while doing my holiday shopping always stresses me out, so we opted to shop online last year. Know what you can handle and figure out solutions to minimize the frenzy of shopping, whether that be online shopping or grocery pickup.
  3. Get rid of the guilt: You think that you will disappoint someone this holiday season. You may or you may not if you don’t buy a gift for this person or didn’t have the energy to make neighbor gifts. But that’s okay. When our son passed away, so many things didn’t matter anymore. Let the guilt go and just be okay with where you’re at today.
  4. Let’s find the silver lining: I’m not telling you to ignore how crummy you may be feeling. I’m asking you to look around and notice things that you do have—the people in your life, the blessings you have been given. Practice an attitude of gratitude. Having a thankful heart helps pull you out of your sadness, even for a few moments.
  5. Recharge: Are you an introvert? Extrovert? What helps you rest and recharge? Then do it. For me, literal quiet time with no distractions (I’m looking at you, smartphone) does the trick. Others may benefit from time with family or a close friend, reading, or listening to music. Find what fills your energy back up and do that.
  6. Have a goal: Yup, goals aren’t for January anymore. Having a goal, even a small one, can nurture your mind and soul. Whether it has something to do with your baby (write daily about your child) or not (make a gingerbread Eiffel Tower), that accomplishment is rewarding.

Take care of yourself professionally

  1. Hire a cleaning service: Some of you reading this may be stay-at-home parents, and may think that you could clean the house yourself. If it’s de-stresser for you, then clean away. If it’s tough to clean most days and you can financially manage it, hire someone to clean your home, even just once during the holiday season. It’s one less thing to do and your home will be clean, and having a clean home creates calmness.
  2. Talk to your boss: If you are struggling to focus at work or find yourself breaking down crying, talk to your boss as soon as possible. Your employer is generally concerned with your well-being, because when your personal life is going well, it’s usually reflected in your work. Let them know where you’re at and see if you can figure out some tactics to help you deal with your emotions and your work responsibilities. And for you stay-at-home parents, talk to your spouse so you can figure out what you need to do together to care for your other children and home responsibilities. There will be some things that can go by the wayside until you’re all in a better place.
  3. Connect with co-workers: Sometimes you spend a considerably more amount of time with your co-workers, so try and socialize with them. If it’s appropriate, let them know how you’re doing, because there’s a good chance they want to see how you’re doing, but don’t know how to broach the topic. For you stay-at-home parents, get together with other stay-at-home parents at the park or children’s museum, so your kids can play while you talk and connect. My co-workers were helpful when I needed a break and kind when I wanted to talk about my son.
  4. Take a break: Take a walk, stretch, breath. Work can be a welcome distraction, but when the stress starts to build up because of deadlines and demands from your employer, remember to take a little time each day to rest. A little stretching or desk yoga will do wonders at keeping the stress at bay. For you stay-at-home parents, it’s going to be hard work to carve in breaks some days, but work to get even 5 minutes for yourself to stretch and breath.

Take care of yourself spiritually

  1. Connect with a higher power: Find ways to connect to a higher power. That could mean attending church services regularly if you are religious. It could look like daily meditation. It could be personal prayer or private worship.
  2. Journal: Writing is therapeutic and can serve as wonderful way to process how you are feeling and also to remember your child. You can write about your day, what you’re feeling, or about your child and your experiences through pregnancy and birth. As hard as it may be to write about those experiences, it’s a way of being close to your child.
  3. Do some service: Helping others, in small or big ways, will get you out of your own head and your own sorrow for even a short time. My husband found out another family almost lost their young mom two days after we lost our son, and his first reaction was to show up on their doorstep with food for them as they watched their mom struggle for her life in the days afterward. The outreach to others helped us realize that we weren’t the only ones with tough days ahead.
  4. Count (and express) your blessings daily: It might seem like there’s very little to be grateful for after your baby just died, but when you stop and take a look around and acknowledge what you do have—big and small—it can lower depression and increase your resiliency to stress. Take the time every day to notice one thing that you’re grateful for and express it openly or in a gratitude journal.

Take care of yourself socially

  1. Know it’s okay to change your mind: There are so many family parties and work get-togethers, holiday shows and end of the year recitals, and making gingerbread house making and looking at Christmas lights. So many wonderful things to do, to see, to eat! It’s okay to be wishy-washy while you’re grieving. Let others know what they can expect from you and be honest with where you’re at. If going to that live nativity show is going to leave you in a depression for days, then don’t go. Gauge how you’re feeling and give yourself permission to change your mind if you are not feeling it.
  2. Get together with extended family and also limit that time together if needed: Okay, so this suggestion can be tricky, because some family situations can be difficult or wonderful or both. They know you and you have history with your family members and that in itself can be comforting. Know yourself and your family and spend the amount of time with them that will be good for your soul.
  3. Get together with a friend, but choose wisely: There are some friends that will be there for you to listen, to cry, to mourn with you. There are others who are not in a good position to be there for you as you grieve and that’s okay. Be wise when you choose which friend to spend time with, because they could be more draining, than helpful. I have two former college roommates with whom I go to brunch every month or two and I know that we are all ready to listen to and know what’s going on with each other and it fills my cup to be with them.
  4. Create new traditions: We realized that things were different than we expected that first Christmas after our son died. The “new normal” was becoming more familiar, so we decided to create new Christmas traditions, especially ones that included our son. We have a tradition of hanging a stocking for him and decorating his grave with his own Christmas tree. We ditched other traditions for a time, because they didn’t feel right anymore and we didn’t have energy for them.
  5. Don’t be just “busy”: It’s okay not to be busy and slow down. You may feel like it’s best to be busy, but if you ignore your feelings or don’t give yourself time to mourn, rest, and recharge, those pent-up feelings will spill over and could result in shortened tempers and hurt feelings.
  6. Make a list of holiday don’ts: Everyone has their list of things they want to do during the holidays, but have you ever created a list of holiday don’ts before? On my list this year, is not taking our daughter to see Santa and not making our traditional family chocolates. When you intentionally write down those things you aren’t going to do this holiday, you’re giving yourself permission to not have those things weigh on you. All the things you “should” do to make the holidays merry and bright, can be stressful. Yay for less stress!

Take care of yourself emotionally

  1. Make an intentional list of your holiday dos: This goes hand-in-hand with the previous two tips, but there will be plenty of things that will want your attention. You don’t have to do “all the things”. Be intentional in which activities you do choose. Choose one or two that are meaningful to you, and be okay with catching the other ones next time. Your sanity will thank you!
  2. Turn off the Christmas music: I love love LOVE Christmas music, but I highly encourage you to turn it off. All the songs of the miraculous birth of Jesus are painful reminders that my baby isn’t here and that is hard. It’s okay to turn it off and have some quiet.
  3. Log out of social media: Go on a digital vacation in December, because all the beautiful pictures that you might think are “inspiring” you, may be putting more pressure and guilt on you to do more than you can and should. Plus, if your feed is anything like my feed is, you’ll be thankfully missing out on all the baby announcements and “Baby’s 1st Christmas” posts.
  4. Be honest about your feelings when someone asks: You need to acknowledge to yourself and others when you’re not doing well. Obviously, it depends on the person who is asking, but realize that everything may not (or may) be great. If telling someone that you’re terrible is scary to you, try some softer versions that we use that are also truthful: “I’m okay“, “I’ve had better days”, “It’s been a hard day, but I’m working through it”, and my husband’s favorite “It is what it is.”
  5. Go to a grief support group: We go to our local chapter of Share Parents every month or two. I am always surprised at the mix of people that attend—we come from all different walks of life, but we have one thing that we have in common and that common loss is comforting and connecting. We are all part of the worst club, and we can talk and cry about our children freely together.
  6. Do something other than sitting on your phone or binging Netflix: I am guilty of doing both these activities when I feel like I need to “escape”—they feel like good “numbing” activities, right? But your feelings won’t go away and you will likely feel crummier for having spent two hours scrolling through other people’s cheery and festive newsfeeds or spending 6 hours in front of the TV not doing much. I’ll give you a couple of suggestions of what to do instead below.
  7. Do 1 thing you enjoy and/or are good at every day: What are your hobbies? It may seem like a while since you’ve done any of those things you enjoy. Do one thing you really love to do or you’re good at doing. That could be knitting, baking, playing a video game (not hours’ worth though), working out, playing a board game, spending time with friends, fly tying, taking photos, going to the symphony, writing, catching up on your favorite sports team, drawing, yoga, traveling, and the list goes on. Introduce a little bit of joy by revisiting something you love to do every day.
  8. Make something with your hands: I was antsy and couldn’t sit still that first holiday season after our son died. I decided to sew this bag for my husband as a Christmas gift. This was quite the feat for me considering I had little sewing experience. Using my hands to make this bag helped me concentrate (and distracted me) for a short time as I worked on it. It was a much-needed break and I felt accomplished that I had created something.
  9. Make and take the time to grieve and let the tears come if they do: My husband Lee and I were at an appointment with our therapist six months after our son was stillborn, and I realized that I was doing okay, but my husband was not, having had a traumatic experience after our son was born. Her suggestion was for my husband to go out walking or driving alone for an hour, without any distractions, to think about our son and as she put it, “Let the tears come. Allow yourself to cry if you feel like you need to.” Her suggestion to me was to allow him to have the time regularly so he could process what he had gone through. Do the same for yourself. Let the tears come.

These are just a few things that we do to make the Christmas season more peaceful, calming, and sane for our family. What are some of your suggestions for surviving and even enjoying the holidays? Please comment below.

08: Scott’s advice to go home together immediately after infant loss

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In this advice podcast episode, dad Scott tells how he and his wife Jan returned home together immediately after her daughter’s death, which was caused by complications of necrotizing enterocolitis (NEC).

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04: Jeff’s advice to choose to cry for Jeff Jr.

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02: Bre’s advice to create a smell memory of son Jeff Jr

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Disclosure: Some of the links within these show notes are affiliate links, which means that if you choose to make a purchase, we will earn a commission, which helps support our show. This commission comes at no additional cost to you, our wonderful listener!

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